Dentology Podcast with Adam Nulty

Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Adam Nulty

Episode Release Date – Monday 24 March 2025

Andy & Chris (00:00.864)
It’s another Monday morning, which means we have another exciting guest to talk to. We’re the cup of coffee ready and waiting to be drunk. It’ll be exciting this one. I’m looking forward to it. forward to it. no, that’s that’s in the rules. The rules are you got to We should send that in a note, shouldn’t we really? Please come with a coffee. So this week we’ve got a very special guest. We’ve got Dr. Professor Adam Nolte joining us, principal of Dentists on the Rock and the Digital Smile Studio.

Adam (00:10.618)
I didn’t get a coffee ready to be honest guys, I wish I would have done. I know.

Yeah, exactly.

Andy & Chris (00:30.242)
co-founder and president of the IDDA and also creator of ScanLadder and other dental products, which I’ll be interested to find out about because there’s quite a few patents lurking in the background as well. Sounds intriguing. Welcome Adam, how you doing? Now thank you very much indeed for joining us. We’ve got, it feels like we’ve got quite a lot to get through because you’ve got a number of arms to what you do, haven’t you?

Adam (00:30.299)
Yeah.

Adam (00:43.571)
Hello? Yeah, good thanks.

Adam (00:51.408)
Yeah.

I don’t even know what I am anymore. I’m not a I don’t know. At some point I sort of migrated to being something other than just a general dentist and it’s interesting.

Andy & Chris (00:57.396)
Hahaha!

Andy & Chris (01:09.422)
Yeah, it’s an exciting time to be in the profession. A very exciting time to be Lots of change. Lots of change. They are, they are. Before we get to you being a dentist, only practices, the whole digital revolution that you’re part of, can we kind of roll back to the beginning just to get a sense of who you are? What was your childhood like? Where did you get brought up? Are there siblings? Where’s that accent from? Yeah.

Adam (01:12.464)
Yeah. And times are changing.

Adam (01:29.867)
wow.

don’t even know where my accent is anymore. Originally I was from Manchester. So I try and tone it down a little bit now for working in London. But yeah, the Berry accent sneaks out sometimes. But I think over time it’s probably changed just because I’ve been around Chris, Quintus, Patrick from all over the world teaching and things. My wife’s from Middlesbrough, so I say ya sometimes, which is, yeah, interesting.

Andy & Chris (01:35.088)
Bye.

Andy & Chris (01:55.726)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (01:59.948)
Right. It’s funny because I I had you down for North East. Yeah, that’s weird. That’s weird. I was thinking, that sounds a bit like a Sunderland It’s a funny thing. So my father’s from Manchester. He was from the East Side over in Open Shore. And he qualified as a teacher. So he went to Chester College. But he came to London in his 20s, met my mum and stayed in London ever since.

Adam (02:02.45)
But then, Yeah, you can thank Louise for that.

Yeah.

Adam (02:17.586)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (02:27.191)
But he occasionally goes back for reunions to his college. he’s been in London for 60 years, he’s 83 now. But when he goes back, he’s in Manchester for like two, three days. And when he comes back, he’s got the accent back. It’s crazy, those regional accents Yeah, they’re just in there aren’t they?

Adam (02:40.719)
Really?

Yeah, I probably do the same when I head back there, yeah, I I grew up, I was born in Bury, qualified in Leeds and then went back to Bury. My family are all from, actually from Liverpool and over that way and probably from by and for that. the background of me, I guess, probably was just a naughty teenager that somehow got into dentistry because my dad was a dentist and

Andy & Chris (02:54.228)
well.

Adam (03:12.857)
I don’t think actually wanted to be a dentist if I’m honest. I’m going to sound awful saying that, but I went into it because he was doing well and I was a geek. I was playing with computers and taking them apart and soldering things. I try and get my son doing it now because it works well with technology. yeah, I I liked art, I liked technology and I did a lot of that before uni. Even at uni, if it wasn’t for me my wife,

Andy & Chris (03:19.998)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam (03:41.719)
know she sat over here so I can say this but I’ve been with her now this year 24 years the end of this year so you know if I if wouldn’t have met her then I probably would have been a disaster but but yeah she kind of pushed me towards doing well and I went through uni and went back to working with my dad but I mean don’t get me wrong

Andy & Chris (03:51.533)
Wow.

Adam (04:10.705)
I love dentistry and I’m glad I did it, but I didn’t set out to do that. And when I went into dentistry, it was probably for the wrong reasons, know, family pushing you for this, that and the other. But then through happenstance and meeting the right people, some of which are in the room right now, some of the digital things, which is again, what we’ll talk about, probably what set me on the path I’ve been on. And yeah, I’ve kind of…

Andy & Chris (04:15.949)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (04:20.361)
Mm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (04:32.813)
Mm.

Adam (04:40.068)
gone full circle and I’m still that kid that played around with computers and taking things apart and soldering, coming up with new things.

Andy & Chris (04:45.545)
It competes,

Andy & Chris (04:52.205)
But there’s an engineering element and you said you liked art. And actually, both of those are core components of dentistry. it perhaps isn’t hugely surprising you ended up there, but we also see a number of dentists who are first and foremost entrepreneurs who happen to be dentists. And from your description, I sense that perhaps you could have gone into a number of avenues and industries or professions, but they would still be entrepreneurial.

Adam (04:56.121)
Mmm.

Adam (05:17.776)
Yeah and I’ve got all the family members who are salesmen and stuff like that or working insurance and I could have done in you know different things but I’m a great believer in everything happening for a reason and I’m glad where I ended up. To give you a little story which might be a fun one probably I don’t know when I was 13, 12 maybe back in the days of VHS tapes

Andy & Chris (05:22.487)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (05:25.879)
Yeah.

Almost dentistry by osmosis. Yeah.

Adam (05:46.256)
So obviously to back up friends home video tapes. So to be able to record from one VHS to another, have to use a thing called a macro vision. Well, sorry, you couldn’t record from one to another because of a signal that’s in the VHS analog wave called a macro vision signal, which basically means if you record from one to the other, it loses that.

Andy & Chris (05:46.38)
How?

Andy & Chris (06:08.557)
Yeah.

Adam (06:14.848)
And then you have to, it creates an anomaly in the second recording so that you get black and white bits and you can’t play it properly. So I downloaded that wavefront and created a little box with a SCAR input on both end, programmed a little chip so that it would take that signal out. doing that sort of thing, I would never do that.

Andy & Chris (06:32.442)
well.

Andy & Chris (06:36.493)
Flip.

You could do dodgy copies of VHS. No, no. Adam said, was back up copies for his friends. that’s it. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Of course.

Adam (06:44.78)
Never do that, Chris. Exactly. going back now, four years later, one of the nice things is now I get to do similar things, but to do with robots and all sorts of stuff in the lab that we’re doing here. So like I said, I don’t even know what I am now. I do all sorts.

Andy & Chris (07:09.997)
Yeah, it’s fascinating, isn’t it? Yeah. So can we just, I mean, digital dentistry is a thing that kind of weaves through your career, but can we go back to the point where you went to dental school? It’d be interesting to hear what your dental school experience was like, but how analog was dentistry then compared to where we are now?

Adam (07:21.464)
Mm-hmm.

Adam (07:27.505)
yeah, mean, do you know, something which we say on the courses, is probably really important as well for people to hear is for all the digital dentistry is something which is the focus of what we teach and with guided surgery, restorative, know, you know, CAD CAM, all that sort of thing. Think probably I was in the right place in the right time.

I know Wesley was an early adopter of it, the thing was I was in the right place at the right time to be able to see both the analog and embrace the very start of the digital. So the principles are the same, just different tools. And for example, my year at uni was the last year to create your own denture. So from scratch to finish,

using with wax, building your own denture and processing it, which they don’t do anymore from what I know, most unis anyway. And I don’t even think technicians do it anymore, which is often the most part. the sad thing is that a lot of those skills you would put into practice now and even things like, you know, the volume of things. So, you know, the volume of

Andy & Chris (08:27.875)
wow.

Adam (08:55.161)
carving amalgams, shaping amalgams, learning anatomy and morphology. It’s bloody boring when you’re doing a uni, but the reality is once you know it, then when you’re shaping a composite later or you’re designing a tooth in CAD CAM, then you know the shape of a tooth and what it should look like. So you can be more aesthetic. I don’t know, mean, sometimes you see some, I don’t want to be critical, but.

Andy & Chris (09:13.015)
Mmm.

Adam (09:21.09)
You see some composite bonding cases where some of those principles have either been lost or ignored, or maybe they just didn’t know because they didn’t cover things.

Andy & Chris (09:28.861)
I think it’s very true, isn’t it? I think you’re right, Adam. We were sort of saying that a lot of the dentists we’ve seen that there’s the almost technical functional bit, but then there is that, how do I make it look like a tooth? And somehow that is still the, well, it almost feels like it’s still the creative part. Otherwise it doesn’t look like a tooth. And I think the danger is that if you rely too heavily on the technology,

Adam (09:38.561)
And then.

Like a tooth.

Adam (09:50.818)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (09:55.884)
you don’t understand the guiding principles behind what it is you’re doing. So I would probably fancy my chances of flying an aeroplane. If it was on autopilot and nothing went wrong, I’d probably be okay. But the reason you go to flight school is for the moment it goes wrong. And I guess the reason you need to understand lots of those core guiding principles behind, know, truth, morphology and everything else is if everything we’ve guided surgery goes to plan.

Adam (10:14.989)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (10:20.439)
then arguably somebody with lesser skill might be able to do it. But you need that and it’d be a shame if that is getting lost. definitely. And we’re pushing. Yeah.

Adam (10:26.963)
lose that. It is being lost. Even if it’s still taught in some respects, the volume of practice, is undoubtedly less than it was 20 years ago, let alone 30 or 40 years ago. yeah, and I don’t really know the reason for that because there’s obviously the demand and I know it’s a deeper topic, controversial, but the reality of teaching in universities these days

don’t understand why they’re not doing the same volumes that they were, because people did it, you can’t deny that they did it, and they did it a lot more before me. when they were doing those volumes, yep, exactly. But there’s the demand these days. the only thing that I can think is that there’s a lot more pressures for a whole host of different things these days, which sadly take up a lot of time.

Andy & Chris (11:07.159)
Yeah. Yeah. And they had less, less aids, less assistance.

Yeah.

Adam (11:27.757)
It’s a deeper rub hole conversation.

Andy & Chris (11:29.709)
making really good notes. So what was your dental school experience like? were saying you’re somebody who didn’t… You didn’t kind of spring out and love dentistry. So what was that like? Yeah. And was that lead, you said? Right.

Adam (11:33.642)
Mmm.

Adam (11:40.553)
Yeah. So no, it’s completely analog. Completely analog. Yeah, 100 % analog. Yeah. And I mean, you know, the first year of me practicing with, you know, on a dental chair, we still had one of the clinical tutors who didn’t wear gloves. you know, and people were like, come on, you need to wear gloves. he’s like, all right.

Andy & Chris (12:02.726)
yeah.

Adam (12:09.901)
You couldn’t do that now. But like, again, little story because it’s podcast which is fun. I’m not going to say who was because I wouldn’t want to say the wrong thing. But there was a chap who he was a great teacher, really funny guy, everybody always had fun with. And there was a lady who she was a repeat offender for coming in for.

Andy & Chris (12:12.385)
Having a sip of whiskey while he’s doing it. Having a cigar.

Andy & Chris (12:28.194)
Yeah.

Adam (12:39.425)
pain and she came in and she kept coming in week and week a week. There was nothing anybody could diagnose with things and eventually she saw this chap on clinic with all the rounds, all the students around her and he was like, okay, so what caused the pain? Well, you know, I’ll be eating things and what are you eating specifically? Well, you know, it could be something soft and I’ll get this pain and it jumps around the mouth and

And then it’d be, okay, what about bananas? Does that set it off? And she’d be like, yeah, yeah, if I’d be bananas, yeah, it’s sore. And you go, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, this lady is bananas. Please leave the clinic. And I was like, you couldn’t do that these days. You just couldn’t do it. So rightly or wrongly, I’m not gonna comment on that, but things have changed. Things have definitely changed.

Andy & Chris (13:19.784)
Hahaha!

Ha ha ha!

Andy & Chris (13:27.725)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you got yourself out of dental school, you got your initial qualification, then what did you settle into general dentistry as an associate for a period of time?

Adam (13:40.787)
Yeah, good question actually. So I qualified in 2006. I did a year of VT and Leeds, which was okay. I’m not going to say any more about that. Came back to Manchester and then when I came back to Manchester, I went for my dad and I think I was probably bored. I think I’ll be honest with you. I think at uni and at school, one of the things and this is really

Andy & Chris (13:53.051)
Hahaha!

Adam (14:10.699)
Something which if anybody, and I put this in one of the Dents for Dentists groups online the other day that you’ve always got this fine balance with anything in life of coming across as too salesy and you guys all know this from all the different things. You come across as too salesy or you come across as genuine, I don’t know. But I just launched the new version of ScanLadder and I was sharing it to the dental group and I was trying to be genuine in saying that, you

I’ve been lucky in being able to go down the road of progressing what I wanted and working on dreams and having that sort of thing of developing a product I’ve had. And having those opportunities in the last few years has meant that I could put all my energy into different things, yeah, but it keeps your mind going. And I think sometimes there are, because dentists are clever people.

Andy & Chris (15:02.093)
Mm-hmm.

Adam (15:08.745)
and they’re gifted in a lot of ways. And I think you see sometimes, and we see this with students as well, that if they’re bored with things or it doesn’t challenge them enough or whatever, people are always on that search for something which is gonna pique their interest and be something that they can be passionate about. And I think that’s great. And part of the journey I’ve been on was trying to find that, I think. And I think that when I was at school, when I was at uni,

Andy & Chris (15:34.445)
Hmm.

Adam (15:37.675)
I didn’t know what I wanted really. I didn’t know whether I was doing the right thing. And probably, you know, I’ve said this on a different podcast years ago that one of the biggest probably inputs on me, probably in my makeup, both genetically and mentally as my mom, she was a French teacher. So, you know, her thought processes have probably transferred and I love teaching. I love helping people and

And I love showing what I do to see if I can get other people to have that impetus to find a passion with things. So, you know, why I say all that is from qualifying, think I was probably trying to find that and I didn’t know what it was. And luckily, digital dentistry was at the very start going back then. So, you know, I was picking up on that very early because it piqued my interest because of the things we talked about, the digital side.

Andy & Chris (16:11.425)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (16:21.85)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (16:27.851)
Mm.

Adam (16:35.87)
you know, messing around with things with a kid, technology, being a geek, but also the creative side. So that kind of fed into me also wanting more knowledge, doing different courses. And, you know, I’m not, I’m not a stupid guy and I don’t want to sound big headed, but you know, I’ve got to keep myself interested in things. So, you know, I’ve just gone from course to course and doing things. So I went from MJDF, PGCert, MSC.

Andy & Chris (16:37.288)
Yeah.

Adam (17:04.347)
I still wasn’t happy so I did a PhD for my sins which I still don’t know whether I did the right thing but it’s led to what I’m doing now so okay.

Andy & Chris (17:11.413)
Yeah, yeah, can’t be too bad, It’s interesting though that of all the things you’ve done, you could have easily just slipped into academia and done all this. Or IT. You’ve not gone down that path, you’ve kept it commercial.

Adam (17:18.525)
Hmm

Adam (17:23.495)
Well, we-

Adam (17:27.274)
I haven’t, haven’t. So I’ve got more of a footing in with academia now because of the research and things that I’ve done and obviously the IDDA and doing teaching with things here. But there’s a big difference between academia in university and on the university side and also the clinical side. And people have always talked about reverse snobbery and that sort of thing and academic snobbery and all that.

I don’t know, there is a boundary and I was toddling that fence when I was doing my PhD.

when I was doing it, you could, it was palpable the…

I’m trying to say things in the right way in case someone listens. The energy is to motivate people to be within that system. And my personal path was not in that system because I wanted to create new things. I didn’t want to have what I create become owned by the university. I didn’t want to create things and patent things for it to go off to company heaven somewhere. So, you

Andy & Chris (18:42.989)
Adam (18:43.515)
I wanted it to be mine and I wanted to research the thing that I enjoyed. I think that that if I was to criticize one thing about the academic schedule, the academic staff, I think that there should be more support for clinicians who are outside of that system, who want to cross the boundaries because people are people and if people enjoy teaching, surely that’s a good thing. So

Andy & Chris (19:03.821)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (19:11.304)
Mmm. Mmm.

Adam (19:13.416)
That’s the feeling I got from it anyway, and maybe I’m wrong.

Andy & Chris (19:15.725)
So then the next chapter in terms of you as a dentist, you’re the principal of Dentist on the Rock and the principal of or co-principal of then Digital Smile Studio as well. Did you always see that you would be a principal? Was that part of the pathway to enable you to do some of the advanced digital things that you’re doing now? Was only a practice?

Adam (19:37.896)
We’re just…

Andy & Chris (19:45.261)
Critical to give you that platform to do some of those things to try stuff out

Adam (19:48.392)
100%. Yeah. So again, to go to step back. Um, so when I was working with my dad, uh, I worked for my dad from 2007 to 2000 and, um, early 2015. And I, um, yeah. Um, I was working for him for a long time and I started to dabble with digital things along that path. Cause I did my, you implant qualification 2010. So I was starting to use guided surgery early. I was actually, there was me and Craig Parker were the first.

Andy & Chris (20:14.061)
Mm-hmm.

Adam (20:17.383)
people to use Strauss guided stuff in the UK and know Chris here he was with Nobel at the same time so there wasn’t many people doing it so then that led on to me you know dabbling with Seric and things like that the older versions and then it got to the point with

Cause I was on my own in a practice that was my dad’s second practice. It was just me. And I was basically running everything bar paying the bills. And I got to the point where I thought, do you know what, why am I, why am I doing all this, but just paying the bills and not paying the bills. I might as well run it and pay the bills and it’d be mine. So I offered to buy that out. My dad didn’t want to sell it. That’s a whole different story for.

Andy & Chris (21:01.921)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (21:07.787)
I said that’s an interesting one isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s an interesting one, Can I buy it? No, you can’t. okay.

Adam (21:08.232)
Maybe a different day, maybe one after beers, then we can talk about it in full. But I’ll move quickly past that one. but yeah, so that was the end of that one. So then I set up my own place and when I set up my own place, it was from the get go, a hundred percent set out for entirely digital way of thinking.

Andy & Chris (21:19.883)
Yeah, anyway, we’re going, yeah.

Adam (21:37.5)
because I could because it was a blank canvas. So I bought an old jewelry store. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (21:42.83)
But it’s interesting you say that Adam, because if you had bought your dad’s practice that was established and most typical dental practices are working with equipment that would have been 10, 12 years old, you could have just slipped into running that. But the fact that you started with a blank canvas and you could digitize from day one. Expensive though. In those days, I’d imagine digital was… Yeah.

Adam (21:51.985)
I wouldn’t be here now.

Mm. General.

Yeah. 100%. It was. Yeah. It still is for some people, but we’re going to change that. So I might give you a sneak peek of something in a minute.

Andy & Chris (22:12.909)
Sounds good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Adam (22:13.263)
If you want me to. Andy knows. Andy already knows. Can we talk about that Andy? Okay, okay. So Chris, can I talk about the…

Andy & Chris (22:18.261)
Yeah, of you can, of course you can.

Adam (22:28.735)
Okay, I’ve been given permission. it is breaking news. we are again, I had a chat on a dental group the other day. And one of the things which we’ve been basically working towards with the DDA side, and this basically has led from frustration that just like we were talking about, we’re setting up a practice and it leads on from that really nicely actually is that cost. It’s prohibitive to a lot of people.

Andy & Chris (22:31.969)
Raking news everybody. Yes.

Adam (22:57.542)
Um, and not just prohibitive, but it puts people off because they don’t know what they want. And if they’re spending money, it’s open to salesmen abusing that process. Uh, we’ve been there, you know, when I bought my CEREC, my, the entire CEREC system for a scanner and a milling machine and a furnace cost over a hundred thousand. And that was, that’s, that’s 10 years ago. So it was mad numbers. Um, and then.

Andy & Chris (23:07.213)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (23:18.349)
Huge.

Adam (23:26.439)
You know, things have dropped over time. we brought, we brought out, obviously we’re doing the courses, we were recommending scanners and you’d get let down sometimes because you’d recommend a certain brand and then someone would buy, um, you know, from someone that would let them down with service sales, whatever. So then we started selling our own and we sold our own. And then after we’d sold our own, uh, we, we gradually sell it, sound non-students, that sort of thing. So it just evolved from there, but then.

After that, it evolved so much. We’ve been wanting to have something specific or the workflow. And you said at the beginning, we’re going to talk about the KISS workflow. We’ll talk about that later, but we wanted to basically make it easier and accessible for everyone. There are always going to be very specific things or certain modalities like, you know, Seric selling for in-house.

ITRO selling for Invisalign, know, Medit for implants, you know, and don’t get me wrong, we will continue with that because they’re great. Medit scanners are awesome. But what we’ve been developing is our own scanner, or at least our own branded scanner. So we’ve been working with one company to release our own version that we’re very shortly about to release. those who listen to this get a real sneak peek. And it’s going to be…

less than half the price of any other scanner on the market. So rather than spending anywhere from eight, 10 grand upwards, know, three or four grand. So what the idea of that was, it’s not gonna be, it’s just gonna be no frills. It’s not gonna be, it’s not gonna have the functions that some of them has, or some functions which are nice. It’s not gonna be the best scanner. It’s gonna be the scanner to get you to be able to scan. So if you’re an associate, so that you work in a practice which happens a lot,

Andy & Chris (25:02.477)
Mmm.

Adam (25:21.571)
Where, like you said, if I would have stayed at my dad’s practice, I wouldn’t have had that opportunity. So if you’re an associate and you’re working and you can’t invest because your principal won’t buy something, you’re not going to invest to set up his practice. But you might spend three or four grand, just like you would on a good set of loops to have your own scanner and carry it around in a nice briefcase. So the idea of it is to open it up because again, a bit of a side tangent.

Andy & Chris (25:24.075)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (25:40.525)
Yeah.

Adam (25:50.896)
but the UK is really, really behind the rest of the world in terms of digital. We’ve been here trying to push this thing for many years now with different courses, but all credit to Europe, the US, they are way ahead in terms of adoption, the number of scanners, the amount of people. In private industry, it’s a little bit different in the UK, but for the most part, the NHS…

dentist, dental practices, it might be 10%, it might be 5%, it might be 20%, but it’s certainly not what it is in some place in Europe where it’s 80-90%.

Andy & Chris (26:23.949)
Is investment part of the barrier to that? were saying that the one that you’re… Because I think we’re all prone, if you like gadgets and Gidgemos, you’re prone to buy things and you don’t always use all the functionality. So what you’re saying is by pairing it back to a baseline scanner, guess the entry point becomes more palatable from an investment, but also from an adoption point of view as well.

Adam (26:31.075)
I think so.

Adam (26:42.861)
Yeah, it’s just instead of impressions.

Andy & Chris (26:52.301)
At that sort of price point, you could try it. It won’t take long to get cost recovery out of gunk and goo, will it? Yeah. Because you can sort of say, yeah.

Adam (26:55.097)
Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And not just that, but you know, I hope, I hope what it does, it’ll, listen, I don’t want to sound evangelical saying this, but I genuinely hope it improves dentistry because people can improve massively using a scanner. And if there’s a bigger adoption, then you know, not just for things for speeding up first services, access, but the reality of some of the things like, you know, even just looking at your preps.

I know my preps have improved from looking at my preps over years of looking at them this big rather than this big. So it’s a no-brainer. It just helps you.

Andy & Chris (27:35.692)
And so it help with cameras, isn’t it, with patients taking up treatment? Yeah. And I say it must help with preventing rework, you know, when you send it off and it comes back off and time, cost, frustration from a patient, all that sort of stuff. This might be kind of a sort of self-answering question based on what you just said, but what would you say is the biggest impact that a digital transformation of dental practices has had on patient outcomes?

Adam (27:44.024)
Und bis dann.

Adam (28:02.469)
Good question. I know that one because I mean, obviously, Berry was set up to be digital from the get go. And it’s grown completely through the adoption of more digital equipment. mean, I’ve taken it from a one surgery to a five surgery with that ability in mind. And when I first set it up, it was just for, you know, well, it was for CEREC obviously, but

Andy & Chris (28:07.143)
Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam (28:32.196)
It was a wow factor for patients. I always say in lectures with things, the worst patients that I used to have are now your best advocates of your practice because those people who hated having impressions, hated having come to see the dentist because of the gunk that would go in the mouth, then go away and go, wow, I’ve had this, go to that practice. So as soon as you’re on that, and anybody who uses the scanner will know the same, then…

Andy & Chris (28:35.383)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (28:53.985)
Yeah.

Adam (29:00.405)
it ends up becoming, you know, ubiquitous with keeping up with the times and forward thinking of the dentist. So it helps. I mean, I haven’t even taken, I haven’t taken an impression now.

Adam (29:17.176)
nearly 10 years. So, you know, and I, cause I do it for everything. So it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s, it definitely changes. But yeah, I’ve drifted off from the question, I think, Andy.

Andy & Chris (29:18.541)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (29:32.685)
It’s just that biggest effect. Yeah, the biggest patient outcome. It’s probably repeatability, I’d imagine, in the fact of accuracy maybe, if that sounds like a

Adam (29:36.087)
Yeah. So, yeah.

The biggest patient outcome, think Martina Hodgson is always good at this. She’s really, I don’t know if you’ve chatted with Martina. So Martina is very good at talking about the patient outcomes and assessing patients and bringing them on board and thinking about the type of patient they are. And she’s totally right with what she says with that. in terms of the patient outcome for the quality of work,

Andy & Chris (29:50.421)
Yeah, we have, yeah. Yeah, it’s great.

Adam (30:11.331)
It obviously depends on the lab that you’re using or whether you’re doing it yourself. And don’t get me wrong, when I was first using Serik Things 10 years ago, I don’t think it was as good quality as it is now. You learn from everything. But that’s the beauty of digital is that you can really assess things and learn from what you do by seeing it in real time.

Andy & Chris (30:28.181)
Mm-hmm.

But also you were in really early doors. when anything new comes in, it feels really amazing at the time. then five, seven, 10 years on, you look back and you think, geez, what were we doing? Do you remember when we used to value? mean, sorry, I was going say, Adam, one of the things I always remember is when we used to go out on valuations, which would have been the early 2000s, wasn’t it? suppose. And you’d have people with these CEREC machines and their furnace and their milling machine.

Adam (30:41.57)
Mm-hmm.

Adam (30:45.78)
Well, do you know what though? Sorry Chris.

Andy & Chris (31:02.029)
they wouldn’t use it. We’d say to them, it’s just mad, isn’t it? Completely bonkers. So that cost you 70 grand. And yeah, I used it four times, Adam, and I didn’t like it.

Adam (31:04.672)
Yeah, well, that’s that is exactly why we set this up. So, yeah, because there was no training though, Chris, it was just non. Exactly. So like I bought mine and I wanted to use it for guided surgery and I was literally sold it because I they specifically said to me that I could get an STL of it and bring it into my guided surgery software. That was just a bare face lie at the time because they knew that I couldn’t.

I had to get extra software and I had to run it through converter online and mess around. And it was only because I’m like I am that I managed to get the STLs out of it to use. you know, it was run by salesmen and they didn’t care about whether you used it afterwards. And some of them still don’t. They just want that scanner in your surgery. And so,

Andy & Chris (31:37.335)
Seriously? well. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:47.906)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:56.78)
Yeah, yeah.

Adam (31:58.518)
That’s what we tried to do differently from the outset with setting up small courses. And then the PG-CERT and diploma and masters was to just empower dentists to be able to use the technology for the patient outcome and to actually know what they’re doing with it. Because the scan is so much more than just using it for taking impressions. It’s a backup. not just a record keeping, but it’s a consent process. It’s an educational tool.

Andy & Chris (32:27.287)
Mmm.

Adam (32:28.299)
it’s just that there’s a whole long list of different things that you can do with it rather than just taking an impression. So, yeah, I mean.

Andy & Chris (32:31.787)
Hmm. Yeah. I remember. So I was gonna say, I remember there was a guy who was in lockdown in one of the many webinars that everybody did. And he was talking, he was like Mr. Scanner bloke. And he was sort of saying that, and I never really thought about it, but you said it there, taking a scan of a new patient. So you’ve got what their mouth was. And he said, these people don’t just think about it because they only thought about it in one way, not thinking about it in another way.

Adam (32:51.906)
Yeah. Yeah, it’s copy paste.

Adam (33:00.653)
Yeah. Well, I mean, it does. I mean, these days there are software that will do this for you, but I it’s just, I try and scan every single checkup, every single time, whether it’s a new patient, whether it’s a recall patient, I can say what’s changed. I can see what’s changed. I can go back to what was before. If I want to, if I want to restore it, um, if someone breaks a tooth, if someone loses a tooth, I’ve got the perfect occlusion because I’ve got what was.

Andy & Chris (33:17.837)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (33:22.701)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (33:29.132)
Yeah.

Adam (33:29.268)
So if they develop a dysfunction, I can replace it. So I’ve got all of that data. It’s backed up. But it’s better than that because then you can introduce smile libraries better than ever before, new teeth. I’ll give you an example of it. It’s a really cool story. So know Christian Coachman. So we spent a bit of time. We were going to do some stuff with him. We did a few things, and he spoke at one of the conferences, which was cool.

Andy & Chris (33:50.401)
Yeah.

Adam (33:59.746)
We haven’t done anything for a bit, but we spent a bit of time with them at one point. And he was telling me a really good story about how their lab obviously just focuses on smile design, DSD. So they set things up and provide mock-ups and consultation template. They had a guy that came to them that was an Elvis impersonator. And he randomly had been given

an impression cast, a and a stone model of Elvis’s teeth years before. And he was telling this guy about it. And so the guy was like, can I have his teeth? And he was like, think so. So this is years ago. So he digitized the Elvis’s actual teeth, copy pasted them to give this Elvis impersonator Elvis’s teeth.

Andy & Chris (34:36.382)
my goodness.

Andy & Chris (34:50.093)
Wow.

Adam (34:57.631)
So yeah, and you can do that with your own teeth. You could do that with other people’s teeth.

Andy & Chris (34:57.709)
I hope he said thank you very much

Adam (35:05.441)
Well, I’ll tell you where we’re led from there. So this is a good one. I’ve got a better one for you. one of the things with creating things over time that I’ve had the pleasure with is working with companies to solve some things. But one of the things that I’ve developed over time is my own two libraries. So I’ve got the male, I’ve got the female, and they’re in different things. They were in mesh mixer.

Andy & Chris (35:10.157)
That’s a brilliant story. Brilliant story!

Andy & Chris (35:18.253)
You

Adam (35:35.019)
They’re in medit now, so in medit CAD software, the teeth are my teeth. So you’ve got abdominal teeth, male, abdominal teeth, female, used all over the world, right? Not many people know this, but the medit male tooth library are these teeth. So my teeth are in the CAD library that people are using for CAD software, copying that shape.

Andy & Chris (35:42.381)
don’t know.

Andy & Chris (35:51.422)
I will.

Andy & Chris (35:59.586)
Wow.

Adam (36:02.132)
to give people smiles, fillings, teeth, crowns, all over the world. So there’s a little bit of me everywhere. That is a cool legacy.

Andy & Chris (36:07.115)
Wow, that’s a cool legacy. That is a cool legacy. That’s nearly up there with Bono being used as the outline for iTunes, isn’t it? That’s like the dental version. And a lot less safer than the sperm donor. But then on the back of the IDDA, you’ve also got your own lab now. Can I just ask a question before we get that? Totally frivolous.

Adam (36:17.576)
Yeah. Not as cool.

Yeah, that’s safer.

Adam (36:31.829)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (36:36.011)
Have you ever seen anyone with your teeth?

Adam (36:41.482)
giving a few people my teeth and then still next them for a picture, Chris.

Andy & Chris (36:44.87)
because how fun, how that would be amazing. I recognise those, they’re mine.

Adam (36:47.658)
Yeah. No, what’s better is we did a case with Quintus over here in London and this chap, he said, I really like your teeth. Can I have your teeth? And I was like, yeah. It’s like, no, sorry. Can I have teeth like your teeth? And I was like, yeah, you can. I gave him I gave him my actual teeth. So and then that we stood like with a picture at the end and he was he loved them. But yeah, they were actually my teeth.

Andy & Chris (37:12.781)
Brilliant. That is great. That is fabulous. That is great. Yeah, very sensibly. Yeah, that’s the way, isn’t it?

Adam (37:16.903)
a slightly aged version of them. that’s again, yeah, that’s the nice thing about it. can customize things.

Andy & Chris (37:23.617)
That is brilliant. That is great. that’s a great story. I that. I like that. Yeah, that is a really good. Very good. So yeah, so you’ve got now got a lab and an R &D center on the back of the Academy as well.

Adam (37:33.471)
Yeah, that’s yeah, so it’s been a big change. So. Step back a bit, so with Barry went set up the practice there, probably the biggest biggest change in my life was working in London, but also meeting Chris, Patrick and Quintus, who are my best friends. I’m saying that because they’re here, so they say nice things about me when I’m moody all the time. But but yeah, so they they live.

You know, in Norwich and Cambridge and, um, you know, I work with Patrick on a Monday in London. We’ve, we’ve kind of been evolving things for a while to, to have our own image, the same way our frustration with the scanners, um, in having our own lab offering, uh, and our own full training center. Cause we were using London. Uh, but the reality of it was that it was too small and it didn’t have enough, um, facilities.

for students, for hands-on. So we wanted our own and that ended up being, we found the right place here in Hetal where I am right now. And this is where we’ve set up and we’ve literally just finished it. So it’s all ready to rock and roll. We’ve got a couple of great lab techs here. We’ve got Marek and Paulina that are really gifted and doing a great job already. And then we’re pretty much ready to launch it out.

But the main reason why we picked this place is it’s at Lotus’s old development center. So it’s Heffield Engineering Center, which is in between Bury St. Emans and Norwich. And the reason why we picked this place is not just because obviously it’s a good place for the lab, but they have like an on-site R &D development aid center where you

Andy & Chris (39:10.393)
I like it.

Adam (39:29.502)
your patents and ideas that can help progress things. So put you in touch with the right people, do all that sort of thing. And we’ve got a few things under our belt for the future, which is basically meant that I couldn’t stay in Manchester anymore. There’s too many things. So I’ve moved from Berry to Berry, to Berry St Evans, weirdly. So don’t know how that happened, but.

Yeah, we’ve been living here since July and yeah, still trying to get everything settled.

Andy & Chris (40:01.623)
Well… Well…

Brilliant. In the introduction I mentioned scan ladder and we talked about the kiss workflow. Just knit those into the story to where we are so far.

Adam (40:10.022)
Yes.

Adam (40:14.289)
Sure. So scan ladder is actually, it’s a bit of a trail in the story in itself really. So originally back in 2018, I made a little ladder type thing which slid about and clicked onto scan bodies to increase the accuracy as you were scanning around. And that evolved over time, having a random surface. And the idea of it is that

which works is that when a scanner is scanning and it doesn’t matter which scanner it is, and you can see that some companies are trying new things to try and get around this, but the reality of a scanner is it’s overlaying hundreds of images over and over again of information to build up one big 3D picture. So as that’s being built up upon and each image is being locked together, invariably it is

dependent on the topography and how much information can be referenced, there will be slight differences in how each frame is locked together on a very minute scale, but that adds up. so around the arch, there is error from a scan of a full arch, if you just have normal scan bodies, because that error is compounded when you’ve got a flatter, edentulous ridge.

that error increases and it can be perfect sometimes, it can be not so perfect sometimes.

Andy & Chris (41:48.333)
And in your world, the margin for error is quite small, isn’t it? Yeah.

Adam (41:51.866)
Yeah. So, but I mean, like for a full arch implant bridge, some people were trying it and those people stopped talking about that you could do it because they must’ve started getting the errors. You might be lucky a few times, but eventually it catches up with you because the law of averages, know, statistics, you can’t get a fully passive fit from a full arch scan because it’s hundreds of images being tied together. So the idea was that the scan ladder provided that random surface. So

every single frame was the maximum possible topography to tie those images together to allow it to maximize the accuracy that’s possible with that technology. And invariably for all scanners, it takes the accuracy down way below what’s necessary to have a full arch passive bridge. But then I evolved that more so with developing

direct to multi-unit scan bodies that incorporate that random surface. You’ve got a few copycats over time that are going to be dealt with at some point, but we’ll get to that in the future. But the way that it’s evolved over time now, I’ve just launched the second version, which is, it’s got a second patent with it. So the first patent was the random surface. The second patent was a common reference point.

Andy & Chris (42:57.099)
I don’t know.

Adam (43:18.14)
What I’ve done with the new version was to get past my own frustration again, was the, by having each scan body separate and unique, the problem with that is you have to have a library for each one of those in CAD software that you click that, that, that, that. So I have sorted a, I’ve designed a common referencing point that’s the same for each scan body.

So the scan body aids the scan, but it doesn’t matter about how well you scan all of that. The common reference in cylinder at the top is the only thing that matters. So when that bit’s picked up, that’s the CAD library. So it’s exactly the same for each one, but with the random surface in between. So there’s eight new versions and it’s worked beautifully. all fully milled this time, so perfect accuracy. And yeah, it approaches.

Andy & Chris (43:54.294)
No.

Adam (44:13.404)
photogrammetry, is gold standard. yeah, I literally just launched it, it’s gone off like a storm. So like I said, I’m not, don’t know what I am anymore. I’m not a dentist. seem to do all these crazy things.

Andy & Chris (44:21.997)
Brilliant.

Yeah. But what I love is that you’re, fixing problems and fixing issues that you have. And I think those are the best innovations, like things that irritate us or things that don’t work for us. an engineer. Things you can make better. Quite interesting. Yeah. You’re, they’re not just random things you’re coming up with. You’re literally scanning and saying, this could be better if I had a, and then you go and design the thing that would actually take you there.

Adam (44:30.619)
Mmm.

Adam (44:38.972)
Hmm

Adam (44:51.749)
Wish I could tell you some of things we’ve got in the progress. We’ve got some crazy stuff, really crazy stuff. Don’t tell them. I’m not gonna tell them.

Andy & Chris (45:02.321)
And I guess it’s only, and it’s not going to slow down either, it? You know, with the of technology and with robotics and AI. Yeah, exactly. It’s heading in a direction where there’s so much more. And what’s the KISS workflow?

Adam (45:06.148)
Now.

Yeah, AI and robotics.

Adam (45:17.115)
So the final bit before I spoil anything else is yeah, the kiss workflow. So basically we’ve not launched that yet. And it’s probably the culmination of everything we’ve done. you know, like I said before, everything we’ve done has been born out of frustration, trying to fix problems, trying to come up with solutions, teach things that weren’t being taught, sell things the way that they weren’t being sold.

you know, develop new workflows and what have you. And one of the things which is again, frustrated a lot of people who do digital dentistry is the ability for them to use guided surgery, CAD software to, you know, spend, it’s again, cost prohibitive. So we’ve been putting together a, an ecosystem and an open ecosystem. And it’s important to say that because

A great ecosystem works well when it’s closed and it does what it’s intended and it doesn’t need to have any external connections. So, Seric is a really good example of that where the system works beautifully and you know, if you’re doing in-house dentistry, Seric’s still great because everything connects, everything works. It doesn’t do designs as well as Exocad and if you want to tie in with other things, you have to jump through a few hoops, but it’s not designed for that. So,

The closed system that that is, and it’s more open than it used to be, so it’s unfair to say it’s completely closed because it’s not. But what we wanted to create was a workflow that worked for clinicians. So I don’t want to give all the details away yet, but basically it will cover pretty much everything from consent all the way around to design, lab, implants, everything. Card, guided surgery.

Scan in. So it’ll be an ecosystem.

Andy & Chris (47:16.747)
Right. Yeah. So again, I suppose in terms of providing accessibility to digital dentistry, it puts it in one place and makes it easier for people to adopt it. Makes it doable. Yeah. is cool. Yeah. Yeah. Adam, based on your career experience, what’s the critical skill you need to master to be an entrepreneur? If you had to distill it down to one thing that is

Adam (47:27.972)
Yeah, and open if you did want to do other things. That’s the important thing. So you can pick and choose.

Andy & Chris (47:46.549)
non-negotiable. What is it you’ve got to nail?

Adam (47:51.652)
is a good question.

Andy & Chris (47:53.879)
You only learned one, which makes it really hard.

Adam (47:56.154)
Passion.

Andy & Chris (48:00.334)
in interested

Adam (48:03.342)
I think if you don’t have passion, you get frustrated very easily at different things. And you don’t get over those frustrations. If you don’t have passion, then you’re never going to end up in the right place. And I think you’ve got to be a firm believer in where that place is. And I think that probably leads to probably how I was saying to my kids the other day about when they were doing something naughty and I gave them a really good idea of things of

Andy & Chris (48:07.831)
Mm-hmm.

Adam (48:31.841)
Sounds like the guy from the matrix with no cause and effect. And I always try and give the kids probably a real world thing. And if you want to be an entrepreneur and you want to develop things in dentistry or anything, I think you’ve got to have that end goal in place. If you’ve got that end goal and you’re passionate about it you want to have it, then work for it. But if you’re going to get there, then it’s cause and effect. You can’t do things that conflict with

Andy & Chris (48:46.349)
Mm-hmm.

Adam (48:59.577)
an end result that doesn’t suit that goal. What you do has to fit towards getting to that goal. And I think passion helps that a lot because if you don’t understand or if you don’t have the heart for it, whatever it is you’re working towards, you’ll make the wrong decisions and cause and effect, you’ll end up not at that goal.

Andy & Chris (49:07.127)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (49:19.383)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (49:23.993)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that answer. Yeah, it’s like that. What was that thing that, you know, if you want to go somewhere, you decide where you want to go and then you choose your start point. Yes. Because if you don’t know where you actually want to go, you go all over the country. That’s right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Adam (49:37.466)
It’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. So like, to give you a good example. So, I mean, I’ve learned a lot from developing the scan ladder stuff. and I don’t say this just to talk about it, but just because I have the, you know, the process over years, I’m not a company. I’m not, you know, a factory. I’m not, I’m not an engineer and you know, I’m a dentist.

and I knew what I wanted, I wanted to solve that problem. That was the end goal. And I’ve tried different things and I’ve had some issues and I’ve had some errors and I’ve dealt with them and then corrected them to get that to the end goal. And that cause and effect gets you there if you know what that end goal is. you know, I mean, and you can have, you can change your goal, but it’s, it’s, what you do has got to account for fitting in with that.

Andy & Chris (50:20.203)
Mm. Mm. Yeah. Mm.

Andy & Chris (50:33.293)
Absolutely. That’s Adam, we’ve got to the point where we’ve got a couple of questions for you before we can let you get back to your digital world. Inventing. Yeah. So the first one is you’re a fly on the wall in a situation. Where are you? Who’s there? What’s going on?

Adam (50:39.257)
Okay.

Hmm

Adam (50:51.341)
Now this is the point where if I do I give you the honest answer and be controversial or do I not? And Louise is probably going, don’t do it. God. Now or just in general?

Andy & Chris (50:53.186)
Ha ha ha.

Andy & Chris (51:01.767)
don’t play it safe. No one’s listening, honestly.

Andy & Chris (51:13.217)
Whatever you want. Whatever you want. We’re not going to let you out on this. All you’re doing is, I recognise your style. This is a delay tactic while you work out what it is you’re actually going to say. What was your instinct when I asked you the question? What was your instinctive answer?

Adam (51:31.819)
I would love to be in the room with Elon Musk telling Donald Trump what is found by the scenes about the corruption going on.

I’d love to know what’s actually going on with things because I think there’s probably a lot more than we know about. I’d love to know what he was finding out about what’s going on in the UK, but let’s see. I won’t go down that conversation anymore.

Andy & Chris (51:43.606)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (51:47.137)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (51:51.438)
Yeah. No, no. think, I think that all you have to think about is Independence Day, if you’ve ever seen Independence, aliens you haven’t seen it. And they asked the president when he goes to the bunker area 51, he says, how, how, do we afford this? Who’s paid for it? And the dad doesn’t he says, do you think it really costs $400 for a toilet seat or something? there’s all that moan.

Adam (52:09.271)
Mmm.

Adam (52:14.263)
Exactly. That’s why I say I’d love to be a fly in the world because it could be all sorts. Anything. It seems like every day there’s something weirder coming out in the world.

Andy & Chris (52:20.077)
That’s amazing. Didn’t you see that PFI thing the other day that they were saying that schools, someone teacher said, I’d need a new plug. And they said, yeah, we’d do that for 400 quid. And it’s like, the cost of procurement. Who has their hand in whose pocket, but let’s not go any further than that. Moving on, moving on. You can meet somebody. You can sit down with somebody and have a glass of red wine.

Adam (52:42.263)
Yep.

Andy & Chris (52:49.111)
Chillon, Chardonnay, Whiskey, whatever your tipple is. Who are you going to sit down and have a conversation with?

Adam (52:55.063)
at any time in history.

Andy & Chris (52:58.178)
Yeah.

Adam (52:59.991)
Einstein.

And I don’t mean to be cliche, only because I’ve got a few ideas that I’d like to run by. If I tell you, if I tell you this, this will sound crazy. And my wife, again, will tell me off and talk about this. If I stopped doing dentistry, if things go well enough with all different things and I end up not needed to, or if I can’t or whatever, whatever happens, if at some point I wasn’t being a dentist anymore, I’ve had my eye on.

Andy & Chris (53:08.993)
Hahaha!

Adam (53:33.559)
there’s a like an integrated undergrad and master’s degree in physics and quantum physics. And I really wanted to do that for a long time. I’ve got a few crazy ideas and I like physics and I read a lot about it. So I don’t just want to sound like I’ve got a few ideas, but I’d like to know whether I’m right or wrong. So.

Andy & Chris (53:44.267)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (53:51.681)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (53:56.59)
I mean, he was a amazing man. saw something the other day. was Brian Cox, know, the bloke, the scientific bloke. And he was saying that Einstein, when did Einstein die? Was it, I can’t remember, but anyway, something like 1923 or something. He predicted that, and it was something to do with two stars moving around each other. And he’d calculated that they would move in.

Adam (54:13.503)
No, it longer. It was way later.

Andy & Chris (54:24.075)
based on his calculations by seven millimeters a day or something. That’s what it is. And they weren’t able to ever prove it. And Brian Cox said, we’ve now got the technology to measure this, because we found one. And he said, it moves at seven millimeters. I mean, that is like, a man with no computers and just his brain. mean, flipping, Eck Tucker. So I think that would be a great one, I’ll tell you.

Adam (54:35.994)
Mm, I see it.

Adam (54:47.637)
Yeah, I’d have a long conversation. Be cool.

Andy & Chris (54:49.453)
Adam, it’s been a joy, honestly. We’ve swiveled through so much stuff. I think the starting analog and then we being digital through the whole conversation has been really fascinating. No, not at all. Fascinating. Yeah, fascinating. And I think there’s so much more to come as well. think that we thought through the kind of…

Adam (54:53.834)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Adam (55:01.334)
Yeah, I hope I didn’t get too salty. It’s that passion you see.

Adam (55:10.198)
But it definitely is.

Andy & Chris (55:14.273)
the crazy nerd stage of people just wanting things that are… What’s nice about Adam, and this is the fact that he breaks the pencil. Yeah. So we had a friend who worked on the Eurofighter and he said the problem is they use this phrase, he said that he kept saying to the designers, we have to break the pencil, he said, because otherwise you just keep designing and you never actually deliver. listening to you, what’s really cool is… Things happen. You’ve said, right, well, OK, this is like number one.

Adam (55:16.285)
Mmm.

Adam (55:22.539)
Mmm.

Adam (55:35.904)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (55:44.203)
And then there’s going to be number two and number three, number four, rather than trying to get to number 12 and then wondering why you’re going out of business.

Adam (55:50.902)
Do know what, do know what, probably my weakness and if I was to, you know, if there’s any advice I would give on anybody who’s listening to, has good ideas and wants to do that sort of thing, or even just the entrepreneur side of things, my weakness is I do too much myself. So exactly what you were just saying, but the, think that I’ve got better at it. I have got better at it, but it’s hard for me is to delegate and spread out what needs to be done.

because I do too much. And then I get stressed and the older I get, I’m gonna get more stressed. But the, I think the best entrepreneurs that you hear about and see are the people who build the right team underneath them and delegate things in the right way so that it’s not just them. know, people don’t work on their own, they work in a team.

Andy & Chris (56:21.663)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (56:33.165)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (56:41.678)
Yeah, yeah. We like to be in tribes as a species. We like tribes, don’t we? like people. Brilliant. Adam, wonderful. Thank you much. your time. We will leave you to your team and your lab and no doubt we’ll catch up soon. Yes. You too. Cheers Adam. Thank you.

Adam (56:44.383)
Mmm.

Adam (56:49.365)
Pleasure.

Excellent. Lovely to chat to you guys. Thanks very much. Have a good week.