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Dentology Podcast with Julie Dale


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Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Julie Dale

Episode Release Date – Monday 24 June 2024

Andy & Chris (00:00.998)
I can’t believe now we’re 140 plus and seven o ‘clock every Monday morning we do the same thing. We do and I tell you what we have not run out of interesting people to talk to which is fascinating is that you know there’s it’s a relatively small market dentistry. I think that serves that I think that reflects well on dentistry the fact that there are

such a broad range of interesting people but also dentistry is beyond dentists isn’t it yeah it’s true that is true yeah when we think about dentistry we talk about dentists but there’s this whole kind of back end of support system and businesses that support the dentist we’re so lucky we have never had a duffer no and we can assure you listeners that we haven’t had one that we’ve never

No, they’ve all been good. They’ve all been good. I imagine at this point our guest is sitting there thinking I hope I’m not the first. We have high hopes for this one. No pressure. So ladies and gentlemen today, we are very fortunate. We have Judy Dow joining us. Dr. Judy Dow. Judy is a dentist, global sales manager at Boutique Widening and wife and mum to Felicity and Alexander. And I only mentioned them because at the moment they’re quite young and in years to come, they’re going to listen back and go, that’s my mum.

Which was really exciting. So if we name them, they get a name check. Which is cool. How you doing, Julie?

Julie (01:19.118)
I’m really good, thank you. How are you doing, Andy and Chris?

Andy & Chris (01:22.726)
We’re good. We’re very good. Thank you very much. Looking forward to this. Don’t be dull. This is one of the highlights for us. Recording the podcast is so much fun. So much fun. And from a selfish point of view, it’s almost like market research. We kind of get a real sense of like where dentists is at, some of the key people in dentistry. So when we have our conversations in the other work we do, we feel really connected to the profession. So yeah, it’s a good day for us. We love doing this. You know, love what you do. We love the chatting, chatting, finding out what’s going on. And…

And basically just letting you talk. We just sit here and listen. It’s great.

Julie (01:55.566)
It’s really good, I listen to it in the car all the time, I’m absolutely delighted to be here. It’s passed many, many hours of travelling for me, so thank you.

Andy & Chris (01:59.734)
And you while away the hours Listen to yourself. Yeah Your your dental career is very wide and varied and we’ll get to that but one so young. Yes. I did that very nice. It’s very very nicely done. But but people are always so interesting It’s always fascinating to kind of roll back to the early years and kind of understand

where you got brought up, what your parents are like, is there history in dentistry, what those early years like for you.

Julie (02:32.238)
Well, I’m from a little town in the north west of England called St Helens. St Helens.

Andy & Chris (02:37.254)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rugby, rugby, isn’t that rugby or something? Not so rugby. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie (02:42.774)
Yeah, around that, yeah, yeah. And just pretty standard upbringing was brought up with my younger brother, who’s now in musical theatre. He’s on the West End. He’s a performer. So he took a completely different career path. Yeah, he’s in West End. I don’t know if it’s been announced, the new thing that he’s been, he’s just finished with We Will Rock You on the West End and he is in the cast of a very big musical that’s just, that’s been on the West End for a very long time. So yes.

Andy & Chris (02:57.094)
Is he? Cool. What’s he performing in?

Andy & Chris (03:10.758)
Brilliant. wow, he’s doing very well. That’s very high profile.

Julie (03:12.398)
Yeah, he’s doing really well. I taught him everything he knows, all the time that I choreographed him in those step songs. All his success comes down to me. Yeah, that was steps, yeah. And yeah, we had a great upbringing. Not sort of that sort of, we didn’t have lots of stuff. We brought up in a very small house.

Andy & Chris (03:19.462)
Wow, wow, wow, wow. Not a tragedy. Was that steps? Tragedy? Yeah, thank you. Just checking.

Andy & Chris (03:37.478)
Can I just wind back a bit? So he’s very theatrical. Are you sort of were you because you’re very front foot from what I know. So just going back to were you sort of like a theatrical type youngster.

Julie (03:50.126)
Yes, yeah, I have kind of done quite a bit of drama stuff in my youth. And I’m really glad that I did actually, because I never knew all those years ago that it would lead to me being able to present in front of hundreds of people and having that confidence. So you just don’t know where these skills are going to take you. So yeah, it’s definitely benefited me being able to kind of have that.

Andy & Chris (04:04.23)
Yeah, definitely, yeah.

Julie (04:15.086)
background and also since then my brother has actually given me sort of speaker training when I’ve kind of had really important things to do. How do I buy you? How should I do this? And he’s actually logged into a zoom call and taught me through how to present myself. So yeah, it’s great to have like friends in high places to help you with these sort of things. But yeah, so but as my childhood was great, it was fun. Like I said, we didn’t have too much and also there wasn’t a lot of a lot of

Andy & Chris (04:22.118)
I’m brilliant.

Andy & Chris (04:29.798)

Julie (04:42.574)
pressure from my parents to perform academically. There was none of that. Like, you know, my dad was in the police and my mum was a secretary and no A levels or O levels between them. So, going into school and things, there was definitely no expectation to go into dentistry. I fell in with a really good group of friends who are still my best friends now in high school who were really high achievers. And I sort of coasted along with them and then they’ve all become doctors and dentists.

Andy & Chris (04:46.95)

Andy & Chris (05:08.398)
Got dragged along almost, yeah.

Julie (05:09.742)
Yeah, yeah, doctors and dentists as well. And then that’s the direction that I went in. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (05:15.27)
So why dentistry? As opposed to theatre? Did you think about going into drama or stuff like that?

Julie (05:17.454)

I’ve not got the talent that my brother’s got, unfortunately. Did you hear me on the karaoke at the party at the weekend? It was…

Andy & Chris (05:24.966)

Andy & Chris (05:28.646)
I thought I actually I’ll tell you what I mean. We will talk about this later on but when you started singing There were a couple of people who turned around and went Julie can I sing? It was almost like a bit of a shock really, but anyway, so there we go

Julie (05:36.046)
Anyway, I’ve not really got the talent there. So I went into dentistry because, yeah, I just got all those kind of A’s and A levels and didn’t have a clue what to do, to be honest. And then everybody else was doing dentistry and medicine. And I looked at it and thought, well, I won’t need to work weekends or evenings and overnights if I go into dentistry. It seemed a little bit more flexible.

Andy & Chris (06:02.406)
Yeah, makes sense.

Julie (06:05.198)
So probably that might be the wrong reason to have gone into it, but absolutely love to dental school actually and had the best time ever. It brings together so many different things that I love, the science behind it, the arts of dentistry, that sort of artistic side, and then having to be a great communicator with your patients. Yeah, I absolutely, I did love it.

Andy & Chris (06:19.91)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Andy & Chris (06:27.366)
You kind of got your head turned through some work experience, didn’t you? Which kind of exposed you to a little bit of dentistry. I love when I hear people saying it was work experience that got me involved. It’s quite a few actually, isn’t it? Yeah, over the years we have. And I do wonder, and I don’t know the answer to this, but I wonder whether it’s still something that’s quite strong in schools, whether they still have these work experience programmes to give young people insights. That’s true. Particularly as a dentist, you

you need to make some decisions quite early on in your life in terms of choosing the right A levels and then you often need to go to dental school to qualify and they’re quite big decisions for teenagers to make. But if you do work experience, it really gives you an idea as to whether it’s the sort of thing you want to do or not. It can have a bearing. I don’t know whether that’s something that is still as present today as it was perhaps 10, 15, 20 years ago. Yeah.

Julie (07:20.238)
There’s more red tape around these things now with like insurance and I remember as somebody came into my practice and asked to do work experience and I think we did have to turn them away because there was certain things you know that you know I remember when I did it which would have been a very long time ago now probably in 1999 or something and it was you know I was processing the x -rays and actually helping out like sort of aspirating and things for the patient nowadays there’s no way you’d be able to do that to have your hep B and all this so yeah I unfortunately

Andy & Chris (07:45.478)

Julie (07:50.192)
I don’t think there’s that much hands on and with dentistry as a career, age 17, to choose that is a huge decision. And if you’ve not actually seen exactly what you need to do, like…

Andy & Chris (07:57.542)
It’s a big decision.

Andy & Chris (08:04.646)

Julie (08:05.198)
not just with regards to the actual practical aspect, but the patient management side of things, knowing that you really do need to be sort of really empathetic and sort of highly skilled at the same time. It’s a big mixture that I think you need to really have got.

Andy & Chris (08:18.534)

But also if you work that out in two weeks work experience, it costs you two weeks. If you go into a five year process of studying and learning dentistry and then graduating, and a lot of that is based on university without a real patient. So there’s the communication skills perhaps aren’t as taught to this extent, they might need to be empathy doesn’t exist because you’re using phantom heads, all those things. So you qualify, you then go into a live situation and this then you’re like, bugger, I don’t like it.

That’s a long time to have gone through a process. It’s a bit late isn’t it? You’ve sort of got to finish then even change career. Yeah, yeah. Which dental school did you go to?

Julie (08:49.422)

Julie (08:55.95)

I went to Sheffield Dental School, yeah, qualified in 2006, yeah, it was great.

Andy & Chris (09:03.014)
Was there a nice balance between clinical and social? Was the right mix? I don’t think Julie was very social. I’d imagine she. I sort of somehow see you sitting in every night, reading a book, doing your knitting somehow.

Julie (09:07.054)

Julie (09:15.822)
How can you tell? It was amazing. It was absolutely wonderful. So I lived in the same house the whole way through dental school with five other dentists. And it was very social. There’s always somebody around. And actually with Sheffield, I didn’t really need to move out of my sort of mile sort of that I lived in. So I lived in this house, went to the dental school, went to the gym, and I worked in a pub the whole time I was there as well. And so I kind of just lived.

Andy & Chris (09:27.718)
I mean, that’s cool.

Andy & Chris (09:41.19)
I will.

Julie (09:41.998)
and the student union. There was loads of socials with dental school, got involved with all of those. Dental sports days were like the highlight of the year. That’s actually where I met Prem, the CEO of Beauty. That’s where I met him was at one of those sports days.

Andy & Chris (09:58.406)
Wow, that’s interesting.

Julie (09:59.406)
Balancing that with the whole academic aspect is, it could, it was a challenge, but I think it kind of gets you through, doesn’t it? I mean, that sort of social aspect to look forward to. Work hard, play hard is definitely my motto.

Andy & Chris (10:11.238)
And did you pass first time? Because we’ve had a fair few people who’ve sort of blown an exam somewhere at the end. Had their blips on the way.

Julie (10:18.958)
Yeah, I did pass first time. Despite all the social stuff that you see, I’m a massive geek in the background, head girl mentality, super conscientious. So yeah, 100 % did.

Andy & Chris (10:27.526)
Ha ha!

Andy & Chris (10:31.91)
I think the throwaway mark of A to A level was kind of going with the tip that you’re probably quite smart.

Julie (10:37.986)
Yeah, well, yeah, I worked really hard though. It doesn’t come naturally. Yeah, just put the hours in in the library, certainly.

Andy & Chris (10:43.238)
Yeah. No, no, no.

So then you qualify and you spend 14 years working as an associate on the NHS. The NHS gets a lot of bashing. We know that it’s a broken system, it’s not fit for purpose. But what was your experience like of working in the NHS? What were kind of the high points and the low points? And where did you work? Did you work in the same practice or did you sort of move around a bit?

Julie (11:07.758)
I worked in a few practices around Manchester and Liverpool in the 14 years that I was working with some fantastic principals and the NHS really, like you say, it’s not fit for purpose. It’s a struggle. It’s de -skilling associates so much because you really can’t provide the treatment that you want to. But by the same point, I met the most amazing patients and I was able to do some

fantastic dentistry for many many years and actually I really enjoyed it and apart from the sort of the target hitting which was sort of the the negative aspect of it and that sort of yeah the threat of litigation all these things that sort of creep in but overall you know I think I think the NHS it’s kind of…

despite it failing, I think it’s got some amazing people in it who are actually making it work as much as possible. And that’s kind of what I experienced. I had two particular principles that I worked with who were just sort of the earth people really, you know, feel like they’re giving back, you know, almost something. And that’s contagious, I think. And so the whole practice took on that sort of ethos. Yeah, yeah. Overall, I enjoyed it.

Andy & Chris (12:02.126)

Andy & Chris (12:12.966)


Andy & Chris (12:19.494)

Andy & Chris (12:26.438)
Hmm interesting interesting you mentioned because we’ve we’ve heard it a few times and it seems to be Sitting there in the back of dentist mind that threat of litigation Yeah, you know you you said it, you know, it’s like it obviously sits there with dentists as a Almost like a monkey on your shoulder for want a better choice of words that it’s it’s always whispering in your ear I think it’s it’s terrible really the fact that you you have to your mind thinks like that is You know that brings its pressure its own doesn’t it? It’s mad

Julie (12:55.534)
It really does. I think, you know, and I don’t think it depends how you manage it, doesn’t it? Some people are able to sort of and cope with it and just deal with the problem. I used to really stress about it. You know, I used to have sleepless nights worrying about certain cases and things. 100 percent. I think I think and I think that’s the norm. And I think it’s not really kind of leaving kind of the clinical side of dentistry now and checking in with lots of people that I’ve known from over the years.

Andy & Chris (12:56.038)

Andy & Chris (13:10.31)
Did you?

Andy & Chris (13:16.998)
It’s mad.

Julie (13:25.518)
I didn’t realise it was the norm until I’d spoken to so many people about it. I thought I was the only one who worried as much as I did. Yeah, it is. It’s pretty widespread.

Andy & Chris (13:28.422)

Andy & Chris (13:35.174)
I think one thing that dentistry isn’t particularly good at is opening up about things like that. It’s getting better. It’s getting better. In some of the other work that we do, we get to visit hundreds of dental practices as a business a year. And very few dentists, I mean, in your work, you would as well, but very few dentists, particularly practice owners, ever get to see other practices and ever get to talk to other dentists in their situation. So we all assume that kind of it’s just us. Nobody else is going through what I’m going through.

And when you start chatting to me, we start to realise that there’s a lot of people that are going through the same thing. You were saying about you no longer do clinical dentistry. And quite often we do put limitations on what we believe we can do. And you said before that, you know, I’m a dentist was almost engraved on your on your soul. That was kind of how you almost defined yourself. So can you just talk us through the kind of the process that you went through yourself in understanding that you could still be in

involved in dentistry but you didn’t need to necessarily treat patients in a clinical capacity. Especially as you obviously enjoyed it. Yeah, yeah.

Julie (14:42.222)
Yeah, yeah, I did enjoy it, but I always felt, initially it was kind of, I felt that I wanted to do something more. I felt that kind of working just in the confines of one room every day, I really struggled with that. I would like drive up to the practice, walk past my little window to my surgery and be like, I’m gonna be in there until six o ‘clock today. And I used to really, really struggle with that, as well as sort of the regular stresses that went along with the job.

I felt that I wanted to go out and see the world a little bit more and talk to more people and like my partner he was he’d left physiotherapy actually and had become like a manager at a medical device company and I would come home after a day seeing like 30 patients on the NHS like really stressed out you know worried about stuff shattered and I go what have you done today? And he’d be like you know took people did some training and then we went for some lunch and I feel like

That’s not a job. That’s not. He was always earning like really, really well. And I just couldn’t get my head around the fact that, you know, you could, you could work within a profession and, and, and, but, but kind of not having to do their actual clinical side of things. So.

Around 2020, it was COVID time, everyone. It was almost like a punctuation mark in everyone’s lives, wasn’t it? And practices closed and we stopped. And it really gave me that sort of pause for thought that I thought maybe there is something, you know, I could go and try something else. No one’s going to take my BDS away from me. I can always go back to dentistry, but let’s just give it a whirl. And so I started looking around for different opportunities within the profession I could go into.

Andy & Chris (16:18.63)

Julie (16:28.992)
felt that, you know, that kind of sales kind of side of things would have been really kind of definitely interested me. I remember going to BEIA Dental Showcase and just walking around and being like, who can I work with? Where is it exciting? And it was actually on LinkedIn that I came across Dental Monitoring, which in sort of incorporated the AI in the remote monitoring of patients. And I was like, wow, you know, AI.

Andy & Chris (16:40.198)

Julie (16:55.214)
in healthcare really is absolutely revolutionising how so many professions are doing things. I feel that dentistry is a little bit behind in that. And I thought, this is it. And so, yeah, I saw the opportunity and I took the leap. And lots of people have said to me, gosh, that was really, really brave. I really don’t feel that it was. There were certain things that once I got into that role, I had to be brave and do things like public speaking and creating presentations and going into important business meetings, things that,

Andy & Chris (16:59.406)
Mm -hmm.

Andy & Chris (17:17.894)

Andy & Chris (17:25.03)
Mm. Mm.

Julie (17:25.12)
you don’t do as a dentist that I kind of had, I was thrown into. But actually taking the leap, I could, I’ve still got my, I’ve still registered with the GDC. I could go back there and go back and work. It might so wish, but it’s, it’s, it definitely kind of, it felt like the right time. It was the right thing. It was the right decision for me. It wouldn’t have been the right decision for lots of people, but it was definitely the right thing for me to do at that time.

Andy & Chris (17:37.094)

Andy & Chris (17:48.238)
And in terms of AI, which is kind of at the core of what dental monitoring has to offer its clients, do you see AI revolutionizing dentistry? You’ve probably got a slightly better insight than many being at dental monitoring.

Julie (18:03.598)
100 % yes. I mean currently it’s focused on the orthodentic, massively focused on the orthodontic patients and where they’ve come with that, being able to see if a patient needs to move on to the next liner or stay in it for a few more days, being able to see if your fixed brace, if the wires stopped moving your teeth and it’s time for you to go back and have that changed, that is mind blowing. But the potential for it with oral hygiene, with perio, with sort of general sort of dental checkups and things.

The potential for it’s absolutely huge. They literally just touch the tip of the iceberg in the capabilities of what that software can do. And I honestly wholeheartedly believe that, you know, it will, if it’s embraced by the profession, it will completely change how absolutely everything is done.

Andy & Chris (18:38.854)
Mmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (18:50.374)
We spoke to Lottie Manahan, the therapist and hygienist ages ago, and she…

raised something that I’d never really thought about in particular, but she was saying that one of the biggest impacts on the environment that dentistry contributes to is patients traveling to and from practices. She was saying that all the work you do in a practice is great, but actually the biggest negative impact on the planet is patients having to travel about and forwards. So I guess using AI, if it can reduce the frequency within which patients actually have to physically visit the practice, the sustainability aspect,

Julie (19:11.662)

Andy & Chris (19:29.32)
it and I’d never really thought about it in that way but that’s a massive win.

Julie (19:33.07)
It’s absolutely huge. Like when you think about, and I had orthodontic treatment, you were there every six weeks. It’s the missing school. It’s yeah, it’s the getting in the car. It takes hours and hours out of your life to go to those orthodontic appointments over that course of treatment to change that. And it’s the convenience, you know, we’re all busy, busy people. It’s, you know, we to be able to, you know, if you’ve got several children and they will all need braces, this isn’t going to be a huge part of your life. It’s just crazy.

Andy & Chris (19:38.021)

Andy & Chris (19:43.59)
Mmm. Mmm.

Andy & Chris (19:49.446)

Andy & Chris (19:57.958)
Yeah, it’s a part -time job

Julie (19:59.694)
But there’s some time, but now they can get it down. So you just literally need like a few appointments, but it’s not that you’re getting checked less. It’s not negligent. You’re getting checked weekly, if not more, you know, by, you know, obviously it runs through the AI. If anything is picked up that’s slightly out of the ordinary, that’s then highlighted to the clinicians and they can react to that to get you back. So it’s almost like it’s like a big brother, you know, it’s there, it’s watching everything that’s going on. So it’s a higher standard of care really using AI. I think some people are quite reluctant.

Andy & Chris (20:04.23)

Andy & Chris (20:08.758)

Andy & Chris (20:15.398)
Mmm. Mmm.

Andy & Chris (20:22.118)

Andy & Chris (20:27.014)

Julie (20:29.6)
they’re like you know the robots are taking over but I think what their mindset that we need to take is that we as clinicians we can only do so much as you know one person but we can massively massively expand our capabilities by embracing this new technology.

Andy & Chris (20:32.166)

Andy & Chris (20:37.766)

Andy & Chris (20:45.158)
Mmm. Don’t give them legs. That’s what I say. AI. Just don’t give it legs, because then it can walk around.

Julie (20:52.078)

Andy & Chris (20:52.682)
Keep it keep it in a box. Don’t give it legs. It just made me think I could you imagine like in I know let’s say 20 years time 30 years time like an Amazon drone rocks up to your house Dentistry and then disappear just disappears again. do you just go back to hopefully never your decision to leave clinical dentistry? Some some dentists have but but not that many

Julie (21:05.806)
Or should we do that for you? Yeah.

Andy & Chris (21:21.382)
Why do you think that is? Because you obviously went through a process of exploring things that were outside of the surgery, but still connected to the profession. But you are quite rare. Most dentists qualify and just say in the surgery. Why do you think that might be?

Julie (21:37.486)
I think part of it is that, you know, you don’t say, I do dentistry, dentistry, you say, I am a dentist. And so it’s almost part of, it’s part of who you are. It is your identity. I think part of it is that I think some people believe that their skills aren’t transferable. You spend five years at dental school. That’s a huge investment. Some people feel that that’s sort of throwing it away. But I also think that, I think that quite a lot of people do quite enjoy it. It’s, it’s, we’ve got quite a lot of stuff to moan about, you know, with, you know, there are,

Andy & Chris (21:45.19)
It’s your identity.

Andy & Chris (21:55.91)

Andy & Chris (21:59.654)

Julie (22:07.392)
are sort of certain things that within the profession could be better. But I think at the end of the day, it is a very rewarding profession. So.

That’s why there is actually a group on Facebook called Alternative Careers for Dentists. And I can’t remember, but it’s got thousands and thousands of dentists on there. Interesting people. People are making the move away from clinical dentistry, becoming teachers, going down the law pathway with the indemnity organisations and things like that. But it’s a great community actually on there. But I was shocked actually to see the numbers. For a little while I felt like a little guru on there because I kept replying.

Andy & Chris (22:24.678)
I really?

Andy & Chris (22:43.43)
Ha ha!

Julie (22:44.576)
people giving people ideas I’ve posted when we’ve been recruiting I always make sure I post on there as well because just to show people you know there is if you did want to be obviously going into sales that’s not for everyone you know public speaking I was at a court today and someone said that the biggest fear in humans above death

Andy & Chris (22:50.31)
Ha ha ha.

Andy & Chris (22:57.166)
Hmm. Hmm.

Julie (23:05.294)
is public speaking. I was like, really? I’d rather die than get up and talk in front of people. That’s kind of, I don’t get that. So yeah, this kind of movie, it wouldn’t be for everyone into this, but.

Andy & Chris (23:06.79)
I’ve heard that as well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (23:20.038)

Julie (23:20.59)
There definitely are so many different avenues and I think that it’s underestimated those skills that you have to have. And there’s so many skills as a dentist that you have to have. You can use them in lots of other ways. And I think it’s just kind of having ideas and yeah, being brave enough. You know, at the end of the day, we’ve all got to earn money. We’ve all got mortgages to pay and things like that. And taking a step away from that, which is quite often a pay cut away from dentistry, that’s a risk that some people just aren’t willing to take.

Andy & Chris (23:29.126)

Andy & Chris (23:32.934)

Andy & Chris (23:37.702)

Andy & Chris (23:45.478)

Andy & Chris (23:50.342)
I think you’re also right, I think we very…

quickly and easily overlook what transferable skills we do have. We don’t put them into another context and say, well, what could I do? And actually in your situation, having that clinical knowledge, that real empathy of what it’s like to sit next to patient after patient and taking that into the industry is a superpower because there aren’t many people that have that dual aspect. Adding the drama, confident background is interesting. Yeah.

Julie (24:19.822)
Yeah, people do when I’m kind of, obviously I’ve only worked with products that I’ve felt really passionate about. And, you know, cause I think that when you are selling something, you do have to feel like that. But when I do mention to people that I’m a dentist, they do listen differently. I don’t know, cause like, they kind of see that I totally understand. I’ve walked a day in their shoes. Yeah, yeah. Which is great. It kind of, it…

Andy & Chris (24:26.502)

Andy & Chris (24:30.79)
Yeah. yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (24:41.19)
gives you authority almost.

Julie (24:47.246)
quickly gets you into that sort of trusted business advisor rather than just kind of trying to, yeah, just, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Andy & Chris (24:50.15)
Mm -hmm a salesperson. Yeah Yeah, so then you obviously first met Prem at a sports day when at uni and then a call came from Prem What sport were you doing at the time? Was it like hurdles or javelin? Interesting sport. Yeah, I got well known sport. Yeah, we’re very we’re very good at that. We normally get in the medals tequila shotting

Julie (24:59.406)

Julie (25:05.806)
Thank you. Tequila shots, to know.

Yeah, I think because I’m tall it was like you can be on the netball team and then that was the…

Andy & Chris (25:21.254)
Now we’ve got to go goal attack goal defense or the bunch that stay in the middle. Don’t know what they’re called

Julie (25:25.998)
Yeah, yeah. So I think I was like, I was I was in inverted commas playing netball slash socialising. Prem had some sort of like crazy fancy dress costume on, I think, I don’t know, might be Homer Simpson.

Andy & Chris (25:38.438)
There’s no surprise there then, is there? So out of character for Brim.

Julie (25:42.414)
Yeah. And, and we’ve been so yeah, we’ve been quite good friends for like 20 odd years. And then the call came out of the blue as I was at dental monitoring at the time. And he was like, you know, do you fancy coming to be our global sales manager? And there was there was a huge attraction there because I’ve seen how they market and it’s just it is out of the ordinary, you know, it’s an extraordinary product, but it’s it’s it’s they have a lot of fun, a lot of fun. And that was

Andy & Chris (25:59.91)

Yeah, I Mean most people will know who he is But Prem is the founder of boutique writing and if ever you’ve been to a dental exhibition and if you see anything outrageous like a giraffe or a dinosaur or a dwarf dwarfs That will most likely be a boutique stand because he is extraordinary from the marketing side of things I’m fascinated to know what the interview process with Prem was like

Julie (26:29.294)
Ha ha!

I don’t think there probably was that much of a formal interview process, to be honest. He approached me with the role and I spoke about my vision of how I saw it kind of playing out. And really, because we’re taking the leap into those global markets now, it was somewhat to be at the helm of that. And having had my experience from dental monitoring of working within a big corporate organization, going to this much smaller one, that’s something I kind of wanted to bring my experience from that there.

Andy & Chris (26:47.366)
Mmm. Mmm.

Julie (27:00.496)
And so, yeah, formal interview process was probably, there probably wasn’t really one apart from just, yeah, being able to bring my vision and aligning with his really. And I think that’s what.

Andy & Chris (27:00.71)
Mm -hmm.

Andy & Chris (27:14.086)

But the thing is, Prem strikes for somebody who has great intuition. Culture will be very strong for him. And we sacked off the formal interview process decades ago on the basis that you’re much better off having a coffee with somebody and chatting with them about what their weekend was like. Have they been on holiday recently? The truth. What did they do at the weekend? When you just get people to relax, you truly find out what they’re at. Drop their guard. Yeah, but also, you know, over the years,

Julie (27:34.382)

Andy & Chris (27:44.872)
is everybody’s been through a formal interview process, so you know how to answer those questions. Whereas if you just sit and chat, you really get to the kind of the bones of what that person’s like. So I’m a big fan of conversations as opposed to interviews.

Julie (27:49.038)

Julie (27:54.094)
Yeah, it’s like that. Yeah.

personality and character ethic, you know, the Stephen and Poe V. Seven habits are highly, I always think about that because you can, you know, you can present your personality, like what’s above the surface of the iceberg, sort of, you can present that however you want, but it’s actually the true character. You need to get down to like, you know, who that person actually is, and you can’t do that in an interview. You fundamentally can’t. Culture is a huge, we’ve just recruited a team and it’s been, it’s a huge focus on what we do.

Andy & Chris (28:03.526)
Yeah, highly effective people, yeah.

Andy & Chris (28:12.678)

Andy & Chris (28:16.582)

Julie (28:27.776)
and why everybody is so loyal within the business, you know, and, you know, why we all do sort of work so hard and give that extra, you know, extra bit of effort in everything that we do is because we know that, you know, it’s almost like a family where we are.

Andy & Chris (28:35.526)

Andy & Chris (28:43.206)

Julie (28:43.758)
know that, you know, Prem’s really got our back. And one thing that he says all the time is it’s nice to be important, but it’s important to be nice. So it’s kind of one of those things is like, yeah, we tell people with kindness in everything that we do within the company and sort of, you know, and externally to all the kind of things that people that we meet. That the culture of the company really has been, I feel how, you know, as well as lots of other kind of clever things that have been done, it’s been sort of the

Andy & Chris (28:53.318)
So true.

Andy & Chris (29:00.102)

Julie (29:13.712)
basis of the success.

Andy & Chris (29:15.174)
I think nice is massively underrated isn’t it you can do and achieve so much by being I think somehow nice is mistaken for soft and woolly

Whereas actually it’s not. I think nice and caring. I’ve said it before, but I remember Ed Sheeran, the musician was interviewed and they were asking him like why he’s so successful. And he said, you need skill, you need to work hard and you need to be likable. Nice. But he said, I’ve given them to you in the reverse order. First of all, you have to be likable and nice. If you’re not the sort of people you should never get past it, then nothing ever gets going. If you have a bit of a dick, nobody wants to work with you. Nobody wants to spend time with you. Whereas if you’re nice, that will.

Julie (29:41.774)

Julie (29:51.342)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (29:56.232)
create opportunities and then you need to work hard and you need to have some skill. And I think there’s a lot of truth in that. Definitely. I think that likeability factor. And I think if you can then ingrain that in your culture and you have skillful people. You know, we were at the Dentistry Show and Stephen Bartlett was talking and he talked about the importance when he’s hiring of people that get the culture of the business and do they have exceptional skills to move the business forward. So if you’ve got those two things, it really matters. And then it almost

Julie (30:02.51)

Andy & Chris (30:26.152)
kind of takes on its own being and it sounds very much like within Boutique you’ve got a core of people that absolutely get this culture so when new people come in they just take on that way of working.

Julie (30:28.014)

Julie (30:38.67)
Yeah, 100%. And people do buy from people, you know, that’s, you know, sometimes, you know, there’s some very average products, but they’ve got a great salespeople, you know, and the relationship forms and then that’s where the loyalty to that brand is. So it’s kind of, yeah, that’s something and I find it’s contagious as well. So once you have got that culture there, equally with bad culture, that can be contagious, but good culture once everybody is kind of is on the same page.

Andy & Chris (30:47.91)

Andy & Chris (30:56.102)
Mm -hmm.

Andy & Chris (31:01.414)

Julie (31:06.446)
you’ll find that that grows within the team. And then that surprise, you see it kind of in action at things like shows, where the team have gone about things and taken their own initiative to do something for someone. And it’s formed a great relationship somewhere. And you’re like, yes, we’re winning.

Andy & Chris (31:09.478)

Andy & Chris (31:13.83)

Andy & Chris (31:23.43)
This is really cool. This is really, really cool. So you’re global sales manager at Boutique. Boutique is very well known in the UK. I don’t know what percentage of dental practice you’re in, but it’s significant. 60 % of dental practice, which is an amazing number. Julie did. Just as well. Global sales manager, well done. Amazing number. Where does Boutique sit on the global stage? Is it known outside of the UK? Is that kind of your job?

Julie (31:34.19)
60%. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie (31:41.614)
I’m out.

Julie (31:49.646)
Yeah, well, that is my role, yeah. So it’s…

Andy & Chris (31:52.614)
Hmm. And are they brand new markets for you or are you building on things that have already been done overseas?

Julie (31:59.15)
So it’s been established in Australia for a little while. So we have Stephen Douglas, who is managing that over in Australia. And it’s actually really, really growing, completely different. It absolutely fascinates me how you need to sort of approach different markets in completely different ways. So, I mean, we do a lot with education over here. There’s huge gaps, you know, where, which we fill with, you know, with regards to sort of how to sell whitening, how to

do whitening, it’s not really taught at dental school, but in Australia that’s really been how he’s been able to grow the brand massively is, you know, is hugely focusing on the education side of things. We have recently launched in Kenya, well that’s actually last year, Kenya and Italy. We’re quite established in the Netherlands as well, so we’re a distributor, so we’ve mainly been working through it with distributors sort of across Europe and so that’s my responsibility, sort of like train the sales reps and

Andy & Chris (32:51.398)

Julie (32:58.976)
and the people on the road who were going out sort of selling the product. Yeah, so it is really established. Next on the map is the states. Really excited. We’re looking to kind of get set up over there, whether that be through a distributor or direct sales. We’re just looking for, yeah, we’ll be looking for a sales manager quite soon. And yeah, I mean, obviously not everything translates across the pond, but we’re pretty, I think we’re really pretty lucky in this country. Like,

Andy & Chris (33:08.101)

Andy & Chris (33:13.062)

Andy & Chris (33:24.262)

Julie (33:28.398)
to have sort of like small up and coming like sort of new brands because in other countries it is just like the big players, you know, the big sort of global names that are dominating the market. To take them on, you know, requires you to be quite brave and it is a risk. I’m confident we can do it. I’m confident we can.

Andy & Chris (33:42.086)

Andy & Chris (33:45.702)
Yeah, and it’s that thing about the point of difference. It’s interesting what you say about in Australia, that their market is very much taking down the route of education. But from a business point of view, dentology is about the business of dentistry. Is whitening something that is fully appreciated as a profit builder in practices in the UK? Do people see it as an income line that does add profit in that way?

Julie (34:12.91)
So no, I think it’s massively underestimated. When we do training with people, we often talk about how it is the most profitable thing that you can be doing with your chair time. It takes about 45 minutes from start to finish to whiten a patient’s teeth by the time you’ve done a consultation, fit the whitening trays and reviewed the patient. And it’s around a rate of around sort of 400 pounds per hour, but it’s definitely not a difficult 45 minutes for dentistry.

Andy & Chris (34:16.838)

Andy & Chris (34:41.03)

Julie (34:42.864)
it’s really quite straightforward. If you’re using a good protocol, you’ll get reliable results. And it’s pretty huge margin there. And it’s kind of like a gateway treatment. So patients will have it done and then they’ll think, well, I might go and get them straightened now or I might go and do this. So it’s a huge practice builder. But also patients love it because it’s relatively accessible as a treatment because it’s not as high a cost as other cosmetic treatments. And you do get these sort of really great, you know, sort of life changing results with it. So it’s a rare situation in dentistry where you get that sort of that that win.

Andy & Chris (34:54.662)

Andy & Chris (35:03.206)
Hmm, no idea.

Julie (35:12.784)
win, you know, happy, really happy dentists, you know, very profitable treatments, but delighted patients. And I think that’s sort of, but I think what people underestimate with it, so they go, right, well, I’m going to do more, right, I’m really going to try. It can’t be.

Andy & Chris (35:13.766)
Mm. Mm.

Julie (35:26.51)
a passive sale in your practice, you know, patients don’t come in, like very few patients will come in and be like, right in my teeth. There’s certain ones that will, they’ve got the money in their hand, they’re ready to go away. But it’s the act of engaging in that conversation is absolutely crucial in sort of taking that patient forward and talking them through it, because patients quite often will come in and they just want to have their checkup and leg it, you know, they’re petrified. And then some people would just be like, it’s a bit vain, you know, I’m a 50 year old bloke, like, I don’t really want to go around thinking,

Andy & Chris (35:28.614)

Andy & Chris (35:32.869)

Andy & Chris (35:48.07)

Andy & Chris (35:55.206)

Julie (35:56.416)
people thinking I might, you know, spending money on my aesthetics and things. And so there’s so many reasons that people don’t bring it up. And so what is like, you know, part of the training we do is how to not be awkward in starting that conversation. You can’t turn around to a patient and go, you know, have you thought about whining? Because that’s just, that’s just offensive. So, well, you know, it’s kind of, it’s, it’s having ways and means of getting the whole team involved in starting that conversation and being able to.

Andy & Chris (36:10.566)

Andy & Chris (36:16.102)

Julie (36:24.718)
that sort of drive those patients towards.

Andy & Chris (36:26.886)
It’s an interesting one. I really hadn’t really thought about that in the fact that you can’t really say, do you want whitening? Why is there something wrong with my teeth? It’s like, had you introduced Botox? You could do with some Botox. Why? Am I a bit wrinkly? Oops. Yeah, I hadn’t really thought about that. It’s quite an interesting one. Yeah.

Julie (36:33.678)

Julie (36:39.982)
It’s really hard to know if it’s actually start or finish then, you know. Yeah. But we like, you know, what we do with our training is we talk patients, we talk teams through how to start this conversation with patients. But ultimately it’s having the confidence, the whole team having the confidence in talking.

Andy & Chris (36:51.974)

Andy & Chris (36:57.286)
So how would you start the conversation? Out of interest.

Julie (37:00.238)
So what we would normally do is we would recommend that first of all, as part of the consultation, you take a look at the patient’s teeth with them. So whether that be you take a picture of them and you’ve got a fancy TV screen in your surgery and you blow it up really big on the TV screen, or sometimes it’s just with a handheld mirror and you just look at the patient’s teeth and you just say to them, how do you feel about the shape, shade and position of your teeth? And when sat with a dental professional looking at that image of their own teeth, patients just write their own dental

shopping lists themselves and they’ll just go, you know, I wish they’re a little bit whiter. And then at that stage, what you do is you get your shade guide out and we recommend that people set up their shade guides going from light to dark on the little shade guide tabs, because they set it up in the way that they come when you buy them. It just looks like a jumble of colour. But when you’ve set it up in a particular order going from light to dark, you can show patients, we’ll go, we’ll see where you are on the light to dark scale. And patients then are always really intrigued into where they fall on this sort of scale.

Andy & Chris (37:31.526)

Andy & Chris (37:42.822)

Andy & Chris (37:59.142)
Yeah, we love comparison don’t we? We love comparing things.

Julie (38:00.112)
show them where they are, show them that it’s, that, you know, 95 % of patients will reach B1 shade, the lightest shade on the shade guide, following this really good protocol, and then show them the end of the shade guide that you naturally go to with age, which is the darker end. And then, yeah, most patients at this stage will go, well, you know, it’s, it’s not even that expensive, I’ll just go ahead. And then the patients that don’t, it will plant a seed in their mind and they will say, you know, yeah.

Andy & Chris (38:21.798)
Wow, that’s cool, isn’t it? It’s their decision, it’s their choice. Yeah, it’s good. Good.

Julie (38:27.63)
It’s their choice. They came up with it, you know, when you asked them about how they felt about their teeth, you know, they didn’t have to say that they wanted to have them whiter. That whole process within a consultation takes a couple of minutes and it’s not it’s not an aggressive, so you just kind of leave it there. But when we do this training with like corporate groups and with them.

Andy & Chris (38:32.198)

Andy & Chris (38:41.19)

Julie (38:47.15)
I just, I did, my friend is a dentist, she works at a boobie practice up the road and I did it in her practice and she was like, we were doing one to two cases a month -ish. And she was like, since I’ve started doing this in my consultations, I’m doing minimum three to four a week. And she was like, that’s an extra holiday for me a year. And she was like, and it’s not that I’m pushing it on them, the patients appreciate it because these are all patients that wanted to have their teeth whitened, but I just wasn’t bringing it up with them when they were in. So it’s just, it’s almost like the patients are appreciating it as well.

Andy & Chris (39:03.014)
I say as an owner, that’s amazing, isn’t it?


Andy & Chris (39:12.102)

Andy & Chris (39:15.778)
Mmm, and it’s repeat business. Yeah, that’s the great thing about it is it’s repeat Mmm

Julie (39:16.398)
and you know, she’s, it’s great. Yeah. And then they’re coming back and having them straightened now and you know, restorations replaced and things like that. Because when you’re whitening your teeth, if you’ve got a crown at the front that’s like a dark yellow shade matching your already darker teeth, then that’s going to stand out like a sore thumb. So you’ll need to replace that as well. So it kind of, it does lead to other treatments within the practice as well. And it can be a huge practice builder.

Andy & Chris (39:36.71)

I think that’s a tactic of getting the patient to kind of be involved in the treatment planning, decide to themselves that’s what they want. Yeah, that kind of is, it’s an education process. It’s like the sale comes out of, yeah, the education, which I love that. How important is fun in what you do?

Julie (39:54.158)

Julie (39:57.614)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (40:05.702)
We’re going to come on to the neon party that we enjoyed recently. But how important, and for you, but also for the organisation, because it’s fun with purpose. It’s not just for fun sake, but it’s fun. One of those kind of cornerstones in terms of the culture. Is there a fun officer? Yeah. Okay, official title.

Julie (40:09.454)
Thank you.

Julie (40:24.878)
Yeah, Prem, that’s his job. He comes up with a genius idea and I have to make them happen. Yeah, fun is so important and I think within dentistry, dentistry is very seldom fun actually. It’s quite a serious profession and I think that’s what we’re…

what we want to bring as a brand and just as people, as individuals, is to show people that we can do things differently. It can be a laugh. And I think it’s almost that escapism from the day -to -day grind of things. Also really selfishly, we like having fun. So whenever we organize, we like to do that. And I suppose also, there’s a bit of that FOMO. If you can see that a particular brand is…

Andy & Chris (40:55.366)

Andy & Chris (41:06.022)
Mm, mm.

Julie (41:14.19)
always, you know, having such a laugh and there’s lots of other people that you know, faces that you recognise getting involved, having fun there. Other people will then want to join the party.

Andy & Chris (41:23.302)
Yeah, well we got to take part in some of that fun. We’re just on the back of the dentistry show and you did a neon party and they’re becoming quite legendary these neon parties, aren’t they?

Julie (41:35.694)
They are, yes, yes, it is.

Andy & Chris (41:39.366)
And you were responsible for arranging this one as well, weren’t you? I think Prem kind of sent it your way.

Julie (41:43.086)
I was, yeah, yeah. The brief was that people just had to come away and be like, wow, like that has blown my mind. Like, what are they on those guys? And I think we achieved it. I think we did. Yeah, it’s very Instagrammable, obviously, neon. It’s something that everyone can get involved in. And it’s like, yeah, we like to push the boundaries of like what we can get away with as well.

Andy & Chris (42:06.982)
But I think that’s uplifting for other people as well because I think, you know, within the trade, the profession, you do look around what other people are doing. I think when somebody is inspirational, when somebody’s kind of pushing the limitations of what they do, it doesn’t make you think about kind of, yeah, are we doing enough? It’s a bit like you’re, not that I can really, my kids would tell you that they always felt that the oldest one had the hardest time because she was the one who pushed the boundaries and everyone else followed. And it’s a bit like the same thing, isn’t it? Ooh, they got away with better.

bottomed waiters. Now that’s there again it’s another sound bite that yeah it’s like the limiting beliefs going back to kind of you saying I am a dentist you know the limiting belief could have kept you in the surgery whereas exploring the possibilities beyond that and I think within business sometimes

Julie (42:38.126)

Julie (42:43.47)
Did we get away with that? I’m not sure.

Andy & Chris (43:00.518)
We do the safe things. I mean he gets he’s over quoted but Richard Branson is a great example of somebody who will try different things and ends up kind of Absiding down a skyscraper and getting the back of his trousers ripped off and you know nearly losing his life in a hot air ballooning trip I’m not saying we should all be doing those things, but it does it does make yeah kind of pause for a moment to say right, okay, so Are we just kind of treading a well trodden path? Would it be more interesting and would there be be more fun try something? You know to try something?

Julie (43:12.046)

Julie (43:29.75)
Yeah, to be in the top 1%, you need to be willing to do what the other 99 % are willing to do. So it is, it’s taking it away from the norm, you know, walking around the dentistry show, you’ve met some great people, some amazing companies, but sometimes it can feel very clinical, very corporate, very safe, you know. And yeah, we definitely want to push the boundaries of, you know, bringing fun to the present.

Andy & Chris (43:30.472)
bit different which I think is

Andy & Chris (43:35.59)
Yeah, exactly.

Andy & Chris (43:45.094)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dull. Yeah.

Julie (43:58.958)
to the profession. But also it’s grabbing people’s attention as well. Everyone’s talking about what we’re doing and that’s great. It’s great press.

Andy & Chris (44:04.166)

Yeah. Yes, yes. It is very good. It was very enjoyable. It was. It was good fun. It was good fun. Late night. Not as late as other people. No, but most good nights. Not as late as Julie, I believe.

Julie (44:21.838)

Andy & Chris (44:23.141)
We’ve got to the time in the show, Judy, where we need to ask you two questions, because no guest sets are leave without answering these two questions. And our first question is, if you could be a fly on the wall in a situation, where would you be and who would be there?

Julie (44:40.11)
I would like to have been a little fly that buzzed into Apollo 11 and got into the rocket and went to the moon and actually looked out the little window and saw Neil Armstrong go on the surface of the moon for the first time. Firstly, because in 1969, I can’t get my head around that they actually did that then. It was just like the biggest sort of…

Andy & Chris (44:48.454)

Andy & Chris (45:04.774)

Julie (45:08.206)
like success in engineering ever. But also because I almost can’t believe it happened like 1969. Not that I’m like a moon landing denier or anything. But it’s just like.

Andy & Chris (45:18.406)
conspiracy theorist. Yeah, like what’s that film with Elliot Gould? Is it Capricorn One? Where they create this whole stage situation where it didn’t actually happen.

Julie (45:27.342)
Yeah, yeah. I almost can’t believe it. I drive up and down the M62 and I can’t get a phone signal to talk to my colleagues. In 1969, clear as day, we heard Neil Armstrong say, one small step for man. Like, did that really happen? But yeah, I also just think to look out from space down at the Earth, I just think that it just must be absolutely unreal. That’s my…

Andy & Chris (45:47.362)
All the astronauts who say they’ve done it they’ve said it’s a very humbling experience, haven’t they? Budget aside, Julie, if you got the opportunity to go on Virgin Galactic, which takes you out to the outer limits of space, would you do that? You would, yeah.

Julie (45:53.07)
Yes. Yeah.

Julie (46:04.27)
I would absolutely do that. Yeah, I’d bring my little boy with me as well. He would be like, I would absolutely blow his mind. He’s obsessed with space. And we talk about space travel all the time. But yeah, I definitely would. Provided it was safe, I would definitely do that. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (46:09.414)

Andy & Chris (46:18.854)
Yeah, do you know what? I think Julie is the only guest I might be corrected here who has actually Described to the fly and where it’s going. Yeah Everyone else gives an answer. You were a small flyer that buzzed into the became the fly Yeah, it was like it’s interesting. Is it I just think and have all the episodes we’ve done Nobody has actually described the fly and where it’s coming. So there you go And our follow -up question is you can meet somebody you can sit down with them

Julie (46:31.758)

Andy & Chris (46:47.174)
They can be dead, well obviously not when you’re eating them. Yeah, whoever you want. Who would you like the opportunity to sit down and meet?

Julie (46:54.382)
so I think it would probably be my maternal grandfather who was sort of a performer around the clubs, not nightclubs, like the social clubs around Liverpool, played by Ia and he was quite famous. He was in World War II, in a prisoner of war camp in Cyprus and he actually met my…

Andy & Chris (47:15.334)
wow. wow.

Julie (47:16.526)
paternal grandfather over there. So they were friends before my mum and dad met. That was just so, it was a weird story. But he had this huge performing sort of reputation. People still talk about the jokes that he used to tell and the songs that he used to sing. And I can’t help but feel that those genes have like, you know, come down.

Andy & Chris (47:21.382)
Whoa, that is bizarre, isn’t it?

Andy & Chris (47:31.43)

Yeah, they must have transferred, mustn’t they? Yeah.

Julie (47:36.334)
Yeah, these little extroverts that are running around now are all as a result of those genes. And so I’d love to sit down, listen to his jokes. He was an amazing performer and singer. Listen to him singing some songs and actually get to experience this really sort of well -known guy that actually, unfortunately, I never got a chance to meet. So yeah, it would be him. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (47:47.558)

Andy & Chris (47:54.278)
wow, brilliant. Are your kids performers? They’re still quite young, but do you think they’re… Yeah. They play up. Yes.

Julie (48:00.27)
They’re only seven and five. But yeah, there’s definitely, yeah, yeah, there’s definitely, they have these Lexus in their room now and they have like, they do put musicals on there constantly and it takes me back to when I was a kid, sort of, my older daughter is, my daughter is bossing around her little brother and choreographing him into doing these songs and dances and I’m like, that’s exactly how I started. So yeah, it’s great fun.

Andy & Chris (48:19.302)
putting on shows. Wonderful.

Andy & Chris (48:28.006)
Brilliant. Lovely. Thank you for your time today, Julie. Yeah, brilliant. It’s really good. Thank you. It’s been great fun. Great stories. I think the way your career has…

Julie (48:34.382)
Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Andy & Chris (48:37.574)
weaved and bobbed around, I think is interesting for you, but I think it’s also inspiring for other people in dentistry to show that there is a world beyond the surgery. In the second act, see, leading on the theatrical there. Yes, exactly. Yes, so I think we need to draw the curtains on this. Hey, see what you did. On this performance.

Julie (48:56.11)
Take a bow.

Andy & Chris (48:58.95)
We will let the listeners go for a break and they can go to the toilet and get themselves a drink during the interval before we come back with another episode. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. I love this, yeah. Entertainment, whatever. Lovely. Thanks a lot, Julie. Thanks, Julie. Cheers. Cheers, Dad. All right.

Julie (49:08.782)
Thank you, bye.


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