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Dentology Podcast with Kaival Patel


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Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Kaival Patel

Episode release date: Monday 27 November 2023

Andy & Chris (00:00.872)
So another episode beckons. Another episode in our Dentology podcast. Yeah. Business of dentistry. Today we’re delighted, absolutely delighted. We’ve got Dr. Kaval Patel joining us. And Kaval is a dentist but also a director along with his wife Sreena of the Kana Health Group and the Kana Dental Academy. Hello, Kaival, how are you? Yeah, hello.

Kaival Patel (00:24.628)
I am brilliant guys, yeah. Thank you very much for having me. Really excited actually to talk to you guys today.

Andy & Chris (00:29.784)
Yeah, now likewise, likewise. You’ve got a great story to tell, so we’re looking forward to digging through that. But before we start, congratulations, sorry. Cleanly shaved first. Cleanly shaved, yes, yes. That’s right, yeah, we must comment on how well-shaving you are. Yeah, it’s lovely, yeah, it’s brilliant, that’s lovely, yeah. But first, I must congratulate you. I wasn’t able to get there, but I understand you did an amazing event for your referring dentist recently.

Kaival Patel (00:39.69)

Kaival Patel (00:45.303)
Just here, right? Yeah, thank you very much.

Kaival Patel (00:56.382)
yeah thank you we missed you definitely missed you but it was it wasn’t really well i think uh… they didn’t really know what to expect and i don’t think we knew what to expect and uh… yeah i think i think the expected a property was that it was going to be this uh… cpd event with this you know some lecturing and just a quiet little uh… shindig and uh… they rock up with a paparazzi wall and showgirls and casino tables and

Andy & Chris (01:20.877)
Ha ha ha.

Kaival Patel (01:26.098)
and lots of different acts and things like that. So I think we shook the Milton Keynes world a little bit. But it was really good fun, really good fun.

Andy & Chris (01:33.969)
Brilliant But things like that they’re incredible. I’m quite often you set the bar so high don’t you start and you’re like, okay Well, we’ve done something so good. Where do we go from here?

Kaival Patel (01:42.985)

I reckon we’ll probably shock them by just doing a normal CPD event next year. Brilliant, yeah, that is what I’m going to do I think.

Andy & Chris (01:49.608)
No, just don’t do it for five years and they’ll get really excited. People will be turning up in wigs and big sunglasses and Elvis outfits and you’ll be sitting there saying, no guys, you’ve misjudged this. No, no, this is all about occlusion, I’m afraid tonight. Now that would be quite funny actually, that would be. Yeah, we’ve got a lot of dental stuff to get through with your group and your academy and your own personal journey.

Before we get to that, what do we need to know about your early years to understand the person you’ve become? What was your childhood like? Were you born to be a dentist? Yeah.

Kaival Patel (02:29.694)
Early years, so my parents, to be honest, my household was just full of love. It was a really happy household. We didn’t have much, but we were never made to feel that way. My parents came over, like with many sort of Indians from East Africa, when they had to come over. And both of my parents, actually, their dads died really early. So…

They were locked to their elder siblings who pioneered coming out here and setting up. They were big families. My dad had seven other siblings, mum had three other. And I don’t think they had TV on those days, so that’s probably what happened. And yeah, so they set up businesses. Dad set up with his brother and then moved over to, I think it was started in London, moved over to Northampton and then set up on his own.

Andy & Chris (03:10.104)

Kaival Patel (03:25.09)
Northampton and Milton Keynes. And yeah, I mean, a lot of their ethos was really just to get me and my sister educated. That was what they wanted to do. That was the primary focus. And yeah, so they run into a few sort of financial difficulties during the way. So we had these shops. They had one specific shop where the guys…

decided that they were going to sell that building to a supermarket and basically gave them very little compensation and sort of kicked them out. By that time my sister started going to secondary education and grammar schools and she was okay. I had one year in prep school and then they had to take me out of there which I think broke them a little bit because they couldn’t afford to keep me in the school.

Andy & Chris (04:08.053)

Kaival Patel (04:21.562)
But what they did do was keep me in Saturday school, much to my delight. And I remember one day at the… Yeah! And I’m in Saturday school. But this is what I mean. The ethos was fully education-based. They wanted to give us the opportunities that they didn’t have coming over. And I do sometimes one day, if they did have to…

Andy & Chris (04:29.216)
all your friends are out playing football and cricket and you’re back in school.

Andy & Chris (04:44.269)
And is this the, we hear time and time again about the Indian culture of you can be a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer or a failure. Is this that side of things or is this born out of their own experience while they want you to be educated so you could potentially have a better life than they’d had?

Kaival Patel (05:01.246)
Yeah, to be honest, I think they just wanted security. I think they’ve come through this life, and whatever they had to go through, and not have that security, so they wanted that. They wanted a little bit of the prestige factor, I reckon, as well. But a lot of it was security for us, and being able to be stable going forward, really.

Andy & Chris (05:15.166)

Andy & Chris (05:19.305)

Andy & Chris (05:23.256)
What was it like going from prep school to state school or do you not remember it?

Kaival Patel (05:28.042)
Yeah, well, so at this Saturday school, the state school was horrible. And it’s not because state schools generally are horrible. I think this specific one just really didn’t suit me. And there was, you know, got bullied a bit and I really didn’t like it. But at this Saturday school, I remember that they did a test, you know, sort of sprung a test on us and the teachers were there. One of them was just sort of looking at this test paper and they called the other teacher over.

And I thought, shit, I’m going to get kicked out of this school here. What do they do? And then they called my parents later in the day and said, look, you know, we’d like to offer him a scholarship, bursary, to come to the school. And this is the school that they wanted me to go to. So I think they were sort of delighted. And this is what I mean, I’ve said to you before, I think there’s a lot of luck that happens on the way. And I think this was one of those things. And actually, I ended up going there.

Andy & Chris (05:58.704)

Kaival Patel (06:25.266)
and it’s set up, you know, me sort of preparing to go to secondary school and ironically 30 years on my kids go there as well now, so yeah, it’s set up really. Yes, there’s one, there is one that’s still there and I try and just duck whenever I’m walking past her, just in case she sort of remembers me, but yeah, there is one, one that’s still there.

Andy & Chris (06:33.761)
Oh wow. Are any of the teachers still there?

Ha ha ha!

Andy & Chris (06:44.507)

Andy & Chris (06:51.482)
So a scholar bursary sort of leads me to think that perhaps you were quite a smart kid.

Kaival Patel (06:57.138)
Yeah, I would look I love sport and I loved, you know, anything that wasn’t educational. But I think yeah, probably was it was able to I sort of just ended up doing the bare minimum to get through, you know, year on year, even to be honest, through uni and everything else, you know, up until probably my final year, where I realized that if I don’t pass, I’m in trouble really. So that was where I sort of

kicked in and actually really studied.

Andy & Chris (07:26.1)
But you had more gears by the sounds of it, by you were kind of coasting, but you had more in the tank. You could turn the gears up and you could apply more.

Kaival Patel (07:35.066)
I didn’t realise until later, yeah. Yeah, you know, and like I said, it just didn’t really filter. For most of my childhood, I just wanted to be a cricketer. And I was this sort of opening bowler. But the problem was that everybody kept growing and I stopped. And so I think I would have been the shortest opening bowler in history if I did rock up there. But yeah, a lot of my childhood was just cricket related, to be honest.

Andy & Chris (07:44.609)
I’m out.

Andy & Chris (07:51.887)
Ha ha ha.

Andy & Chris (08:01.452)
Right, yeah, yeah. You, your dental school experience, you say that you kind of were coasting and then you sort of worked hard in your last year. Was it an enjoyable time? Was your cohort good? Was it partying? Yeah.

Kaival Patel (08:18.294)
No, if my parents are listening to this then no, I didn’t party at all. But actually yeah. To be honest, I went to Manchester, University of Manchester, and I absolutely loved it. It’s probably one of my favourite periods of life. I learnt a lot about myself, I had a great group of friends. There’s eight of us, we still get together regularly now.

Andy & Chris (08:23.495)
Let’s assume your parents perhaps aren’t listening to this.

Andy & Chris (08:43.957)

Kaival Patel (08:46.694)
and it was that group that got me through year on year. So yeah, there was partying, definitely. Again, we played a lot of sports, so five-a-side football, and gradually, I sort of live next to the Curry Mile, so I gradually ballooned and ended up going from striker to midfield to ended up in goal, as you saw what went on. But yeah, you know, I…

Andy & Chris (08:49.333)

Kaival Patel (09:14.338)
looked back really favourably there. I think we learnt a lot. It’s a very PBL sort of culture, problem-based learning in Manchester, which is not for everybody, but I think it suited me pretty well because I got to do the studying part but also have that bit of time as well to do everything else.

Andy & Chris (09:20.812)
Hmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (09:35.778)
The guys that you’re in touch with, just kind of a broad brush, are they working as associates, practice owners, studying dentistry? Have their careers gone as a group?

Kaival Patel (09:43.578)
Fully mixed. Fully mixed. So one of my good friends, Ravi Nathwani, he owns quite a few practices in sort of the Midlands Derby area. I’ve got a couple of other friends who, one’s a lecturer now, Nikolai Roy. He’s a lecturer in Manchester, heavily based on implants. A couple of the guys are our associates. A couple of the guys are looking into practice ownership now as well. So really mixed bagged, really mixed bagged.

Andy & Chris (10:13.012)
Yeah, which I think is probably fairly representative of dentistry. Yeah, that’s kind of what it’s like, isn’t it? Yeah, you know, you get you get a mixture where they kind of don’t go one way or the other. It’s interesting to see whether different dental schools produce people that go on and do different almost ideologies. Yeah. So you qualified you an associate for seven years. During that time, you then did a masters in dental implants, I think. Is that right?

Kaival Patel (10:41.426)
Yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

Andy & Chris (10:43.561)

Andy & Chris (10:47.1)
I was going to say, so you obviously enjoyed the clinical side of things to do that, but also obviously had a yearning on the business side as well because you decided to then go and buy your first as what has become many practices. What was your rationale, your thinking behind? And when was that? Yeah, yeah. When was your first one?

Kaival Patel (11:08.874)
first practice 2015, 2015. But we actually went through the process of trying to acquire, well I guess a step back, where I was an associate, it was sort of heavy NHS with a chap called Rest You in Wellingborough and he’s very much my mentor. He was the, he was the one that put sort of our ethos into place without knowing it at the time to be honest, he was heavily based on education for his associates.

Andy & Chris (11:12.029)
Oh, okay. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (11:35.283)

Kaival Patel (11:36.762)
And so I sort of learned that and I really wanted to do it on my own. And I think when I sort of met Sreena or when we started dating and we decided we were going to get married, I think it was almost like this natural progression is, well, you’re two dentists going by practice, didn’t know the foggiest about it. And it just seemed like it was the dumb thing to do, which…

Andy & Chris (11:57.063)
Ha ha!

Kaival Patel (12:04.886)
I guess it worked out, but it’s probably not the way you need to go into things. So we were getting married 2012, and during the wedding prep time, we decided to take the leap into practice ownership, found a practice we liked, and put an offer in. It was a small practice, and we were going to work in there, and that was going to be life to be honest. And we were going to complete two weeks before the wedding day.

So everything was happening at the same time really. And then I won’t mention names but we got a call from somebody who was helping with that. And he was a patient on that practice and he actually was being told, he went for a checkup and he was told by the owner there, oh by the way I’m selling and I’m selling up a little while away, why don’t you come join me there?

Andy & Chris (13:01.12)
Oh. Wow. That’s naughty.

Kaival Patel (13:02.558)
So we, that was, it’s naughty, yeah. Yeah. So we didn’t know what to do. You know, everything was happening all at the same time. We’ve gone through all the due diligence process. We spent everything on it as well. And then we just said, you know, we’re not gonna do it because what’s the point of paying that much goodwill and potentially not having patience there, you know, when you start. So we sort of dropped out of that one.

And that was our first ever, you know, looking at practices and anything really. So then it put us off for a while, to be honest. It put us off for a bit. Yeah, because you sort of think, oh, well, is this the world of dentistry? Is this what happens? Is this the norm? You know, and then we started.

Andy & Chris (13:41.191)
I’m surprised.

Andy & Chris (13:47.66)
Mmm. Yeah. When you’ve know the reference point, it’s easy to make that conclusion, isn’t it?

Kaival Patel (13:54.174)
Yeah, yeah. Ironically, I became friends with the guy later. I don’t hold grudges. It’s a small world. And actually our life, you know, it was a key moment. Again, it’s one of these luck things that it didn’t feel it at the time. But actually going forward, it was probably the best thing that happened. We didn’t feel it though, definitely. So then we looked at a load of practices then in between. And there was a few, I remember there was one that we really wanted to go for and we ended up

Andy & Chris (14:06.52)
Hmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (14:14.639)
Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel (14:24.534)
not because, well, we actually put an offer in and they went with somebody else because we were too inexperienced. But the good thing, I think, throughout that whole process is I made really good relationships with the bank and they, you know, it was a small bank and they very much supported us and they believed in us. And then finally, the one that we purchased in 2015, we went there, went to see it, put an offer in and it was a big practice and it was a lot of goodwill.

Andy & Chris (14:35.808)

Kaival Patel (14:53.25)
and it was very scary and they said no. So, and you know that whole time I thought this is it, this is the one. And I was so dejected after it went on holiday and it was probably a few months on and I just emailed them to say you know how’s it going and you know I hope everything’s going well for you guys and so on and again one of these luck things and they said well actually the other guys.

Andy & Chris (14:58.219)
Ha ha ha!

Kaival Patel (15:21.89)
probably pulling out because they can’t raise the finance, either finance or commute or something along those lines. So I got on the phone, I was in I think, Abitabi at the time, I got on the phone to the banker, I said, look, I need a letter telling me, telling, saying that I’m good for the money, send it over and I’ll forward it over to them. So I did that and they accepted it and then we started the process and that went really well. So you know.

Andy & Chris (15:27.659)

Andy & Chris (15:46.348)
Wow. But Cable, you say it’s lucky. I don’t know. I think one, it serves to the value you put on people and relationships.

but I don’t know many people who would have just sent an email. Speculative almost. Yeah. Spectative punt, which is, I hope it’s going well. And you created that opportunity. 99% of people would have to shut that down and moved on to the next one, but you just circling back to it at the right time, just created that opportunity for you. And then you jumped on it and you move quickly. So yeah, I think it’s easy to pass off as luck, but you did something that most people wouldn’t have done.

Kaival Patel (16:26.106)
Yeah, that’s kind of you. Yeah, I’ll still put it down to like candy. No, but thank you. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, that was the first one. Um, and you know, there was so many years I was excited to be become a principal that I bought a CBCT even before we are in the practice. So I was ready there to install this, uh, cause my plan was to, um, to, to do implants in and around it and get, again, I’d done this masters in implants. So.

Andy & Chris (16:29.569)

Andy & Chris (16:46.168)
Oh wow.

Kaival Patel (16:56.898)
I’m so excited, I’m sure many of your listeners are as well, they’re excited, they’ve got their own stances to put on things. So literally, day one we took over, I think that week we got it installed, they must have gone, what the hell are these guys doing? But yeah, really excitable.

Andy & Chris (17:15.584)
And I’m sure Sreeni was delighted it was no longer in the kitchen.

Kaival Patel (17:19.003)
Yeah, yeah. Luckily they stored it, but yeah, yeah. We had a really small kitchen at the time as well Andy, so yeah, it would have filled it.

Andy & Chris (17:24.3)

Yeah, it would have filled it. Before we get onto the growth of the group and the other practice you’ve added on, because it’d be interesting to kind of break that down and work out how that happened.

you’ve actually, a couple of years now, you haven’t delivered any clinical dentistry at all, have you? And I’m only interested in that because lots of people that own groups continue to do a bit of clinical dentistry and they might do a couple of days and then they work on the business. Whereas you’ve literally, you shut down on the clinical side and you’re now devoted to developing the business. What was the logic for that? Why did you kind of go down that route?

Kaival Patel (18:10.526)
Yeah, so I think two things, and I think the first was just before, I think 2019, um, Sriniya made this application to, um, NatWest Accelerator program. So it’s mainly for startup businesses. And we, it was a six month sort of initial program. Uh, I think we were there for a year. And when we were on it, we both saw a whole different side to business. And, you know, you, you’re so often.

in a dental business, you don’t have any knowledge about dental business, firstly, right? You’re a dentist and then you go into the business side of it. And then it was a whole different energy, really positive people, really people that wanted to get their businesses off the ground and they wanted to know how and they wanted to know how to market and what people to relate to and the finances side of it. And actually, we both invested.

Andy & Chris (18:41.332)

Andy & Chris (18:45.132)
Hmm. Yeah.

Kaival Patel (19:06.93)
you know, a ton into both. So Sreena did an MSC in Endo at that time as well. I did my Masters in implants. But we both thought actually, you know, we quite enjoy the business side. And thinking of it now as a business rather than, you know, being a dentist in a practice and trying to earn money and gain patience and experience, it flipped us, to be honest. So that was that. But I think

Andy & Chris (19:25.609)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Kaival Patel (19:34.902)
we probably still would do what most others did and have a finger in dentistry, but do the business side up until COVID. So COVID happened and I’ve had this eye condition since I was 21 and normally I have a few drops and it settles down and it’s fine. Now I think probably with COVID and the stress and everything else, it really flared up and to the point where

I remember thinking, you know, I can’t really see that number plate really clearly, you know, in front of me. But everything was shut, so I couldn’t really investigate. I thought my prescription on my glasses had changed, and I just haven’t changed the glasses for a while. So I went to the optician and they said, no, your glasses are fine. There’s something going on with your eye. And I thought, okay, maybe this condition. And then I got transferred to Moorfields Hospital. And you know, I was that guy where they bring all the students to come have a look.

Andy & Chris (20:07.831)

Andy & Chris (20:17.08)

Andy & Chris (20:33.095)
Oh well. You don’t see this much.

Kaival Patel (20:33.514)
have a look at this, you know, so I was there like, no, I was like, okay, right. Do you want to tell me what’s going on? Or are we just going to have a bit of a viewing session? No, so, so in short, they don’t really know. They still don’t really know. There’s a few different issues that was going on. I, it gets resolved with, you know, I had a whole concoction of, you know, it was a cocktail of drops and different things. And then it, and it settled down, but I think it made me think.

Andy & Chris (20:41.796)
Oh really? You didn’t know until… Ha ha ha! Brilliant!

Kaival Patel (21:03.606)
You know, if I’m going to stop dentistry, I want to do it all, do it on my own terms. You know, I don’t want to be forced to do it. And so, and again, I think because of COVID and the fact that we could all sort of stop and reflect, we ended up saying, OK, well, actually, why don’t I slowly stop doing dentistry and see whether…

Andy & Chris (21:09.979)

Andy & Chris (21:15.918)
Mmm. Yeah.

Kaival Patel (21:29.834)
we can do it. And I think, you know, it’s a big leap of faith. Cause you don’t know whether you’re going to end the same income and do whatever you’re going to do. Um, and I think that’s the point where we thought, well, actually let’s, let’s build up the business. Let’s think about the business first. Let’s build it up. Let’s do all these things that we had these aspirations to do, like set up an academy and develop the, you know, the dentists and everything else. Um, so that was a big turning point.

Andy & Chris (21:33.726)

Andy & Chris (21:56.189)
Wow. And it clearly worked because you’ve now got five larger practices, you’ve got your referral center, you’ve got to practice with some partners and you’ve got your academy. So you know, perhaps those two significant moments of you deciding due to your eye issue and also to accelerate your program with NatWest, you’ve kind of put those two things together and you’ve gone on to create this incredible group and it’s happened pretty quickly as well hasn’t it?

Kaival Patel (22:21.515)
Thank you. Yeah, so I mean, the first two practices happened slowly. And like I said, I worked in one, Sreeda worked in the other, and that was gonna be life. And then the next three happened pretty quickly afterwards. And yeah, one, I think ended in 2021 and the last two in the last sort of six months.

Andy & Chris (22:28.3)
Hmm. Hmph.

Andy & Chris (22:40.34)
Yeah, yeah. So a bit more luck as you’d put it.

Kaival Patel (22:44.122)
Yeah, absolutely.

Andy & Chris (22:46.188)
So what, so lots of people look at your situation and be like, okay, so I’m an associate, I’d like to buy practice, or I have one practice I’m thinking about getting to my second. What were the significant things do you think that happened that took you from having your practice and Sreena’s practice, everything was going really well, to making this decision to step back, bolting on more practices, creating your academy, now you’re going to diploma. Now what were the kind of the big lumpy things that happened on that journey for it to work?

Kaival Patel (23:16.05)
I’d love to give you an answer, a really profound answer to that, but I feel like there’s loads of small things that happened. Yeah, I had this plan and it was on my wall and no, it wasn’t at all. It was a case of, we have the two practices, like I said, we wanted to, it was that point when we started the kind of health group and actually we wanted an identity to it all.

Andy & Chris (23:22.022)
It was planned.

Andy & Chris (23:27.112)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ve had this vision.

Kaival Patel (23:45.61)
You know, and we had all these aspirations to have positivity, have collectiveness, all these things. But we couldn’t really do it with just the two practices. We couldn’t get a brand awareness out. We couldn’t get our names out there. You know, all these little things that really, you know, I’m very much the dreamer out of us two. And, you know, I think I told you when we met Andy, I’d be broke if he wasn’t for Sreena. She gets everything in order and she’s…

Andy & Chris (23:56.198)

Andy & Chris (23:59.823)

Andy & Chris (24:14.033)
It keeps you anchored.

Kaival Patel (24:16.106)
It keeps me anchored. Um, and I had all these aspirations, you know, I wanted to do all these things. And she was like, well, can we do it? Okay. I mean, we would look at cash flows for every, every practice going forward and what do we need to do to, to make that practice work? What do we need? What happens if things go bad? What happens if interest rates goes up, you know, and all these sort of things. And then we’re, we looked at quite a few different practices over that time. Um, and then we thought, well.

Andy & Chris (24:35.032)

Kaival Patel (24:44.442)
I would look at it and say, okay, well, can we make this work? You know, and with the loan and with everything else that we need to do. And then we gradually just sort of bolted on. The partnership practice was one of my associates, Roshwin. He really wanted, him and his wife, both entities, they’ve been wanting to sort of have their own practice in the UK for a while now. But he always said to me, look, if we do, then if I find one.

I’d really like to do it with you guys. And I think our growth will be in two ways. It will either be finding good associate-led practices that we can put our spin onto things, or it’ll be with partners that wanna develop the clinical side, and then we’ll do the back office side and go from there. So we’re piloting that partnership practice, going really well. So again, it’s a series of these little events that’s helped us grow. And then…

Andy & Chris (25:27.038)

Andy & Chris (25:40.926)
But quite often that’s the truth of success, isn’t it?

you know, it’s that thing about, you know, it takes you 20 years to be an overnight success. It’s often those small bits that just come together nicely. But it’s also interesting what you were saying about having, from the early days, having a supportive bank. You’re having a bank that understood you, worked with you and helped you. Because I think that’s where lots of people, particularly at the moment, are concerned around finance. But it’s nice to hear that the banks are out there and they’re still supporting dentistry.

Kaival Patel (26:12.81)
Yeah, and I think so we ended up, we blew all their sort of loaning criteria out of the water. So every time we had the practice, we were already past what they normally lend to dentists. And they would have to approach their board and say, all right, it’s cable and this is what they’re out. We had really robust business plans, though. And I think that’s what initially sort of, you know, made them realize that, OK, these guys aren’t just

Andy & Chris (26:36.805)

Kaival Patel (26:41.186)
taking a punt, they’ve thought about all the aspects. And then now it’s more relationships, you know, they know us and we bank with different banks, you know, now, but a lot of it is relation. And I think when you first getting into it, you just sort of think a bank is a bank and there’s set criteria and you have to deal with it. But actually bank is also about relationships and finance is also about relationships.

Andy & Chris (26:58.22)

Kaival Patel (27:07.007)
And actually, if they can see what your vision is and what you’re trying to do and just get your energy, your enthusiasm, it goes a long, long way.

Andy & Chris (27:13.132)
Hmm. Yeah, it does. Yeah, definitely. I think you’re right. I think you have banks, but more importantly, the banks, you have managers that work in banks and it’s the manager who you’re ultimately going to be impressing and influencing and they need to get behind what you’re doing. So if you can find those people, it’s interesting you mentioned about kind of, you know, your, your passion and, you know, I know that within your group, progression and positivity sit at the heart of your business. And obviously that.

feeds into having a really positive culture. What does that look like in the business on a day-to-day basis? What does it feel like being part of Kana?

Kaival Patel (27:50.474)
I think you probably need to ask the associates and the team really. But I think from our part, you know, one of the biggest things initially, and even before, even when we had the two practices, we wanted just the dentists and the team to develop. So everything was in London or Manchester and they’d have to travel to all these places. And actually opposite one of the practices.

Andy & Chris (27:55.782)
Ha ha.

Kaival Patel (28:15.03)
that we had. That practice utilised every nook and cranny so we had no space for meetings or anything like that. And just opposite, there was a sort of an abandoned loft space in the building. I went to go see and I said actually this will be a really good venue to have meetings and have lectures and so on. It was, it had like salmon coloured faded walls and old sulphurs in there and these poles which I did want to keep a Srinath veto.

Andy & Chris (28:38.176)

Kaival Patel (28:43.346)
but these poles in the middle and so we had to clear the whole space and we renovated it and it was a nice large space to have you know a sort of you know u-shaped table and develop it. So we used to have loser lectures for our own dentists and that sort of you know that culture started to develop so that development part was massive for us and like I said this was where you know where I was an associate.

Andy & Chris (29:04.83)

Kaival Patel (29:11.894)
I learned that way as well. And it sort of led to the academy. But the positivity part, that’s been harder. Because when you take over new existing practices, they already have a culture. And we made loads of mistakes in the first practice, because we had a number of dentists, great dentists, great people. But they were towards the end of their dental career.

Andy & Chris (29:25.37)

Andy & Chris (29:37.964)

Kaival Patel (29:38.814)
And then there’s us, me buying a CPCT before we moved in and all these, you know, all these aspirations. They don’t want to do that. They don’t want to be a part of that. They just want to come in, do their job and leave. And it used to be really disheartening, you know, to have that energy and not have people to follow it. But I think gradually as we hired, the people that we hired, we were like, okay, you know, this is what we want to do.

Andy & Chris (29:43.534)

Andy & Chris (29:49.577)

Andy & Chris (29:53.154)

Andy & Chris (30:03.373)

Kaival Patel (30:05.534)
And there’s loads of jobs out there. You know, you can join whoever, but actually if you want to progress your dentistry, you might be with us five, 10, 15, 20 years, but you’ll be a better dentist by the time you leave. You know, so, you know.

Andy & Chris (30:18.373)
Yeah. Teams quite often, they work in tribes, don’t they?

you know, you end up with a group of, in a dental practice, you might have eight, 10, 12 people, whatever it might be. So when you buy a practice, there’s obviously a tribe already established, and then over time you might introduce new people to that tribe. Do the old team, the team that were there from the beginning, do they tend to gravitate towards the new team and the new tribe, or do they find themselves kind of just not fitting with that culture? Because it is a bit fresh, it is a bit different, and if you’ve been in a practice for perhaps 15 or 20 years and you’re used to a particular way

It could be quite challenging for some people.

Kaival Patel (30:57.054)
Yeah, I think you have both Andy. I think, you know, some people are really excited about, you know, a practice might have been that way for 20 years, 30 years, and actually they just wanted that injection of energy. And so they’re there and they’re on board and they want to get to be a part of it. And some people just like, you know, it was going fine the way it was. Why do we have to change it? And I think that’s what we learned along the way, you know, initially. We used to sort of pitter-patter around people and, you know, try and…

Andy & Chris (31:03.777)

Andy & Chris (31:08.116)

Andy & Chris (31:17.302)
Mm. Yeah.

Kaival Patel (31:25.614)
have little bits of our culture here and there. And it wouldn’t work because you can’t have half a culture. You have to have the full shebang. You’re in or you’re not. So I think, and again, it’s hard for people that have been there for a long way and then suddenly you’re implementing different things and they then have to decide whether they’re on board or they’re not. And like I said, it doesn’t make them bad people. It doesn’t make them bad people, but they’re just not aligned. And now we have a different philosophy and it’s, you know.

Andy & Chris (31:28.513)

Andy & Chris (31:32.492)
No, you’re either in or you’re not. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:46.472)
Yeah, they self-select you. No, no, not at all. No. Mm.

Kaival Patel (31:55.018)
This is what we’re about. You’ve seen what we’ve done in some of the other practices. So you’re either, do you want to be with us? Or do you need to find somewhere else? And we’re quick with that now. We didn’t used to be, but now to build that positivity and culture, you need people on board. And then you need to do cool stuff. So we have different initiatives. So we’ve got something called the Karnaka. And

Andy & Chris (32:04.608)

Kaival Patel (32:23.638)
the area manager will rock up at the start of the year with a Harry Potter sorting hat and then she’ll put the people in the practices in different houses and they’ve decided the names on these houses. So they’re very innovative these guys. One of the names is like Flossifers, you know, like Flossifers. One with OPGs that only… Yeah, yeah. And basically, it’s not a KPI driven situation. It’s literally, you get points for positivity.

Andy & Chris (32:41.132)

It’s like being at school. Yeah. Ha ha.

Kaival Patel (32:53.606)
So you might help out a team member or stay late to help somebody out or you have a really good patient experience and they write a Google review about it, these sort of things. And then Jesse, our marketing manager, will rock up with a prize wheel at the end of a quarter. And it’s small prizes. It might be an adventure golf trip or a little hamper or something along those lines. The captain spins the wheel and they’ll get these prizes.

and then at the end of the year we’ll have a Hogwarts style kind of cup which the winning house will get. But it works really, really well for the people that are involved and want to be there. And again, some of the new

Andy & Chris (33:29.612)
Ha ha

Andy & Chris (33:37.896)
Yeah, yeah. Well it is, it’s different. It’s a little bit different, yeah, definitely, yeah. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (33:46.973)
And has your academy helped as well in terms of bringing people together? When we met, you showed me your training suite, which is fab. But I imagine that the academy’s helped in terms of bringing more people together, perhaps across different practices, because that’s a great way to build culture and share common messages across the business. Break down barriers. Yeah, exactly. But did that academy start as an internal project to help?

grow and develop the people within the CARNA Dental Group. Because you actually now do diplomas externally as well, don’t you? Other dentists from all across the country can come and come and learn with CARNA.

Kaival Patel (34:24.682)
Yeah, yeah. So initially we didn’t have the academy. We just had lectures for our own dentists. And then actually local dentists around the area used to message me and say, you know, can I sort of pop into it? I’ve seen what you’re doing and next time you’re having a course, can we come? And then from there, I thought, well, actually we’ve got the facility, you know, we’ve got that ability to do it. So I looked into creating a diploma.

Andy & Chris (34:32.457)

Kaival Patel (34:54.686)
and we went through it and we did it. And then the next thing was getting a group of speakers who could, you know, to be honest, nobody’s heard of Kana Academy and Kana Dental Group and Kana Health Group at that point. So they had to have a big leap of faith to go, to come and come to Sunny Milton Keynes to, you know, be part of the diploma program. And I got an amazing line-up that come there. And so, yeah, year one was a lot of our own dentists.

Andy & Chris (35:10.825)

Kaival Patel (35:23.346)
and then a few local dentists. And to be honest, the USP was, don’t go to London or Manchester, we’ve got a big middle part of the country, you don’t need to travel, come here. And then next year we have people inquiring from Ireland and Lincoln and all over the place. And that sort of blew my USP out of the water because it wasn’t really local. I think because the lineup’s so good, people wanted to come and be a part of it. And so…

Andy & Chris (35:30.872)

Andy & Chris (35:43.232)

Kaival Patel (35:52.898)
The year after, I don’t think there’s any of our own dentists, and we do separate things for our own dentists, but it’s actually all external delegates. So, yeah, it was a bit of a change really, and it definitely brings those guys together. And we have big social events and these sort of things around it. But for our own dentists, we have lectures that happen, and then afterwards,

we’ll have a social after. So last time we had a go-karting trip after that, it gets the different dentists from different groups together. And then I put options of, you know, what else do you guys wanna do? And I really wanted to do LaserQuest. It was like my childhood was LaserQuest and these sort of things. So I put LaserQuest, or bowling, or dinner and drinks, and they all bloody choose dinner and drinks. I’m like, whoa! You know, I was really upset, but.

Andy & Chris (36:28.364)

Andy & Chris (36:49.299)
Straight on the phone, we have to cancel the book. Yeah, no one else. Just me.

Kaival Patel (36:51.942)
Yeah, so we do that for our own dentist separate to the academy, together, together. We have a million WhatsApp groups and the only rule is don’t be a dick, help each other out and support each other.

Andy & Chris (37:03.572)
Yeah. Nope.

Andy & Chris (37:07.636)
Yeah, it’s funny that thing you say about don’t be a dick. A guy called James Kerr has written a book called Legacy about the all blacks. And one of the things to be an all black is don’t be a dickhead. And it’s funny, it’s a very hard thing to actually describe what we mean, but we all know one.

Kaival Patel (37:16.449)

I’m sorry.

Andy & Chris (37:26.784)
We will if someone’s being a dick, you know what? They’re like and I mean, I know you’re well We both are United fans. So we’ll gloss over that very quickly given how things are going at the moment, but you’re not Yeah, you’re a big cricket fan and that kind of link back to rugby You’ve obviously done the Kana Cup which you there’s a kind of a sports element to that Have you have you incorporated any other kind of you know sporting behaviors into the group?

Kaival Patel (37:26.955)

Kaival Patel (37:37.303)
Yeah, yeah please.

Kaival Patel (37:41.188)

Kaival Patel (37:57.306)
So, yeah, I mean, so we had the Cardinal Olympics recently. And, you know, we do a lot of these events, which might be socials in the evenings and these sort of things, but we thought we’d try something different. And I think, actually, it was the most well-received day that we’ve done. And it was really simple. It was higher field. We had, you know, cones. We had egg and spoon races. We had, yeah, we had a sack race.

Andy & Chris (38:01.439)

Andy & Chris (38:07.554)

Andy & Chris (38:15.457)

Andy & Chris (38:22.148)
Egg and spoon. Do you have a sack race? There you go.

Kaival Patel (38:25.942)
We had a sack race. Yeah, yeah. And so I conveniently decided I was gonna be the MC for the day rather than partaking in these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I found a new sort of role for myself there. But you know, like that was out of all the events, that was the one that got everybody together. And again, some of these points go towards the Kana Cup, but the rest of it is just getting, just having fun with one another. And we were lucky with the weather. We had a street food van there with.

Andy & Chris (38:33.196)
participate. Sensible move.

Andy & Chris (38:39.09)

Andy & Chris (38:45.569)



Kaival Patel (38:55.254)
with some kebabs and these sort of things around it. And they just enjoyed it. It was at least for two, three hours, I think, maximum. But it was just good fun. So I think that was something that I think we’ll do year on year and get more and more people involved.

Andy & Chris (39:10.008)

But also I don’t doubt that all this that we’ve been talking about, we talked a lot about positivity, culture, creating the right environment. It actually fills us through to the bottom line. It’s good for business. And it has to be genuine. It has to be authentic. I was gonna say, it does hit the bottom line because I imagine your retention of your team is very high. I imagine when you need new team members, existing team members and mentioning it to friends or family or people they know.

Creating an environment where people want to be around means you get a motivated but a well-retained team and that has to flow through to patient care. Patients get to see the same dentist, the same team members time and time again. So it’s a really smart business strategy to create an environment where people are enjoying themselves and want to stay because I genuinely, and I would imagine, you do have a very high retention rate of team members.

Kaival Patel (40:07.306)
Yeah, I think we go through the cycles, to be honest. So I think, you know, again, whenever you take over a practice, you’ll have that period where, you know, and we have it, you know, where, again, they’re on board, they’re not. So we have to go through that cycle, you know, but I think when you’re through that cycle, and some of the cycles happen at different times. So one of them has happened recently for a practice that we’ve had for a number of years. But we realized it, we’re like, okay, well, this is the perfect time to get.

Andy & Chris (40:17.056)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (40:24.009)

Kaival Patel (40:36.79)
that culture that we want there. You know, like, I feel like these are the times where there’s opportunities. And you know, there’s always these places where, oh, well, we could do this, we could do that. Well, actually, a whole new team, a whole new base, let’s smash it now and let’s get that culture there because then our life is a lot easier. We get the, you know, then you’re being truthful to what the values are. Because sometimes you feel, well, actually, if that practice isn’t quite the kind of health group values, I’m a bit false when I’m talking about it.

Andy & Chris (40:39.603)


Andy & Chris (40:49.464)

Andy & Chris (41:03.527)

Kaival Patel (41:04.63)
But actually, this is what I want. And don’t get me wrong, we’re not 100% there by any means. We’re probably about 50% there. But I think if that’s what our goals are, we’ll get there. Do you know what I mean? We all just have to be on that same path.

Andy & Chris (41:09.58)

Andy & Chris (41:15.32)
Hmm. Yeah, you’re always a work in progress. I love the fact that you’re, you’re so passionate about.

your business and your team and the direction you’re going in. So I imagine it’s an incredibly inspiring place to be. And like I say, it’s always work in progress, but you have very clear ideas of what you want your practice to be and how you want your team to behave. And that’s getting reinforced through your academy. I think it’s great as a model. As a model, I think it’s really fabulous.

Kaival Patel (41:47.782)
Yeah, but again, I think a lot of it is the team, you know, the senior managers that we have are have the same values, you know, and then because there’s only so much me and Sreena can do, you know, and there’s only so much that we can be around other practices. So each of the senior managers and the practice managers in the places have to have that same belief. And if they don’t, you sort of see it because it’s not happening through the practices. So I think you’re only as good as

Andy & Chris (41:58.879)

Andy & Chris (42:08.408)

Kaival Patel (42:14.546)
as the team, you know, and hopefully the senior manager learned from us guys as well and we’re leading in the right way, but they have to follow suit for sure.

Andy & Chris (42:15.7)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (42:22.868)
Yeah, but the reality is you get to a certain size where you can’t at a micro level influence all those people. So if you don’t have another tier of people below you that live by those values, it will unravel. And then you’re then what you said, you know, it’s not particularly congruent when you’re going out saying this is what we stand for and people look at me and go, well, that doesn’t happen here. It needs to kind of happen everywhere, doesn’t it?

Kaival Patel (42:44.058)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it has to be the same point. No, so, yeah, so she stopped at a similar time, a little bit before me, actually, again, mainly based on that sort of business side of it. So she, yeah, I mean, to be honest, I’m the luckiest guy. She, she allows me to do all these crazy things. You know, she, she knows I’m the dreamer. She knows I’m

Andy & Chris (42:47.26)
Her body is made up of many parts. Yeah. Is Sreena still clinical? Or does Sreena work with you purely on the business?

Kaival Patel (43:16.31)
probably the visionary of the place. So she sets up everything so that I can do it. She might see that I’m a bit tired or I’m not being creative, so she’ll send me away. She’s like, just get out, go clean your head for a couple of days, come back, and then we crack on again. And she just does everything operationally within the businesses and all the things I don’t want to do, compliance, I hate it. She’ll get involved with it.

Andy & Chris (43:43.534)

Kaival Patel (43:44.747)
Along with our head of operations and the other team members. But, you know, I think, you know, she’s, she’s literally the backbone of the business. So yeah, really lucky.

Andy & Chris (43:47.644)
Yeah. Brilliant.

Andy & Chris (43:54.314)
Do you miss clinical dentistry at all?

Kaival Patel (43:57.534)
When I’m at the academy, yeah. When I’m at the academy, you know, and I’m seeing these things and then we’ve got pigs head courses and especially the surgery side of things. I really miss it at that point. And I miss the identity, especially at family barbecues. I don’t know what the hell to call myself, right? So, before I used to have a, you know, consultation area at these barbecues and I’ll have a line of people that are coming to see me. But…

Andy & Chris (44:04.156)

Andy & Chris (44:13.899)

Andy & Chris (44:18.448)
Keep it simple, I’m still a dentist.

Kaival Patel (44:26.922)
Now I was like, well, sorry, I’ve not touched a teeth in two years, I don’t think you’d like to trust me with the clinical side. But that was hard, to be honest. Joking aside, I think… Yeah, okay, I’ll use that one.

Andy & Chris (44:27.343)
Oh. Ha ha ha!

Andy & Chris (44:31.008)

Andy & Chris (44:36.264)
You’re a, you’re a don’t trip on her. That’s what you’re a don’t trip on her.

But I think that identity thing, you’re right. I think when you can describe yourself very easily in one word, everybody knows what a dentist is. So when you say, I’m a dentist, Caroline, my wife had a situation at the weekend when somebody asked her what I did. And yeah, it takes a two or three minutes to rattle through it because we do lots of different things and it’s not a career that you can describe in one or two words. So I get what you’re saying. If you say, I’m a dentist, you know, everybody across the globe, across the planet,

this country would know exactly what a dentist is and you are still a dentist but you’re actually building a group of businesses that work within dentistry.

Kaival Patel (45:19.774)
Yeah, yeah, it is hard to describe and then the initial thing you get, oh so you’re retired. Nope, they’re definitely not retired, you know, definitely not retired, yeah, but probably working more now than ever before, but yeah, so I think that was the hardest part was identity part and you know, I mean when you’re, so I was really just accepting referrals, so I didn’t have a very regular

Andy & Chris (45:30.89)
Far from it. You got lots more to do. Yeah, definitely.

Kaival Patel (45:48.438)
patient base of seeing patients every three, six months, that sort of thing. Implant sedation in Visalign. Yeah. And so, you know, I’d see them for the implant journey and then they’d often be gone. So I didn’t have that same, whereas if you speak to Sreena, she really misses, you know, the regular patients that she was seeing and, and just those conversations about family and dog and cat and everything else, you know, like that side of it. So I think that there’s different elements that probably people miss.

Andy & Chris (45:50.155)
Were you doing pretty much just implants towards the end?

But yeah.

Andy & Chris (46:00.747)

Andy & Chris (46:07.76)
Right. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (46:11.644)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (46:18.56)
Mm. It’s.

Kaival Patel (46:18.799)
During that point, for me, it was very much the stage he was like.

Andy & Chris (46:22.164)
It’s fascinating, Kovar, and I think we’ve caught you a really good time because I think you’ve had your dental career, you’re building your group, you’ve got your academy, and it’s going to look so different in 10 years time. It’s going to be unrecognizable from where we are now. But I think to capture it now and then to have a conversation again at some point in the future will be just brilliant. We always wrap up in the same way with our guests. We’ve got two questions for you. And the first one is if you could be a fly on the wall in a situation, when would that be and who would be there?


Kaival Patel (46:53.61)
Yeah, so I did think about this and I really wanted something really special as an answer. But you know, the honest truth is so I’ve got three kids, two boys who are freaking animals. And they’re so disorganized, you know, in the morning they’ll come down, they’ll forget the trousers, they’ll cut, you know, they’ll forget a tie, they’ll forget their homework. And Sreena normally does a drop off. So she coming back in the house to…

Andy & Chris (46:57.6)
Ha ha ha.

Kaival Patel (47:20.878)
quickly pick up their homework or a water bottle and these sort of things. And just last week we had, it’s not a parent’s evening, but it’s like at the start of the year, they tell you how they’re settling it. And the teachers are like, you know, they’re so organized and you know, they’re prepared for every lesson afterwards. And you know, all these things are on time. So I think the fly on the wall actually is I want to see what the hell they’re doing at school. I want to figure out how can we replicate that at home.

Andy & Chris (47:32.085)

Andy & Chris (47:43.777)

Kaival Patel (47:50.934)
to make them disorganized. So that’s the honest truth, I want to see what they’re like.

Andy & Chris (47:50.972)
Yeah, it’s working. It’s working. Whatever it is.

Andy & Chris (47:59.112)
No, no, fair enough, fair enough. And if you could meet somebody, if you could sit down and have a beer, a glass of wine, a cup of coffee for an hour, who would you like to meet, given the opportunity?

Kaival Patel (48:10.986)
So there’s a chap called Mo, I think you say his name, Gaudat. Yeah, yeah. And every time I listen to one of his podcasts, it’s, you know, I find it’s almost inspirational, you know, and I can listen to him literally all day talking about different topics. But the main topic is happiness, you know, and I think, you know, I’m probably a…

Andy & Chris (48:16.368)
Oh yes, the Google X guy. Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (48:30.765)

Andy & Chris (48:34.262)

Kaival Patel (48:39.37)
victim of a lot of imposter syndrome situations and actually always striving for the next level and never being content with where you are. And actually, yeah, you always want the next thing and you’re never enjoying that. And actually, he lost his son at, his son was 21 years old, from five sort of preventable mistakes during a routine operation.

Andy & Chris (48:52.51)
Enjoy the moment.

Andy & Chris (49:03.361)

Kaival Patel (49:08.982)
the way he’s overcome it and he’s found this algorithm for happiness. I think I like it because it’s the fluffy stuff, but it’s also, there’s a bit of theory and maths and all these things. He’s got this equation for happiness and how to do it and how to be happy. And it all together comes down to what your expectations are and what your perception of what things should be are as well.

And I think I’d just love to spend a few hours with him, probably him talking to other people and just listening to that and picking his brains with it. And I think if all of us can come to that conclusion where we’re just happy, where we are, everybody’s comfortable, you’re happy. And so I think that should be realistically everybody’s aim in life, which is easier said than done, isn’t it? But yeah, so that’s the…

Andy & Chris (49:42.561)
Just listening.

Andy & Chris (49:57.42)

Andy & Chris (50:01.476)
Mm-hmm. I think it’s really cool. Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we very Very often we don’t appreciate the 95% we’ve got we spend all our time looking for the 5% that we’d like and In reality the stuff that we’ve got is amazing But we all look around the corner or look at somebody else’s life or somebody else’s house or car or holiday or whatever It might be and go. Oh, that’s the next thing that I want without dwelling in the moment and really appreciating how good it is

Kaival Patel (50:14.219)
It’s hatred.

Kaival Patel (50:29.194)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Andy & Chris (50:32.32)
Well, great point to finish on, Cave, that was wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for your time, been brilliant. Really, really enjoyable. And honestly, I think the trajectory you’re on, I think it’s truly, truly marvelous. I think it’s bringing something quite fresh to dentistry, which is exciting.

Kaival Patel (50:37.034)
No, thank you.

Kaival Patel (50:47.738)
I really appreciate you guys having me and thank you as well. And well done to you guys for what you’re doing. FTA taking over the world. It’s really good.

Andy & Chris (50:57.257)
In our own small way. In our own small part of the world. But actually, you know, for our part, dentistry really is important. You know, it’s important to us as a business, but to society, dentistry is important. And we talk about dentistry being an ecosystem, and you know, what you do, what we do, what loads of other people do, we are all connected and interconnected. And it’s a great profession to be part of. We care about what happens to it.

Kaival Patel (50:59.34)


Kaival Patel (51:21.386)
Yeah, yeah. You know, I always say, yeah, well, I always say I wasn’t that great clinically. But what I’m good at is, is being the middleman and I think connecting people. And you guys are amazing at that. You’re, you know, you connect so many different people, I mean, from the podcast, but also, Andy, you know, I met you at so many events. I’ve only really spoken to you at the last one we were, we were together.

Andy & Chris (51:30.733)
Mm. Ahem.

Andy & Chris (51:43.112)

Kaival Patel (51:45.106)
And there’s crowds of people around you and you know everybody, you know what they’re doing, you’re connecting other people. And actually, if we do that a little bit, all of us do that a little bit just to connect one another. I think dentistry will go a long way. We do.

Andy & Chris (51:56.476)
Well, we all do better as a result of it, don’t we? Yeah, it’s like I say, it’s not a selfless thing. It’s a we all do better. The more people we know and the more we can join those dots, the better we all do from it. What’s that phrase? No man is an island. Yeah, yeah. Lovely cable. We’ll let you carry on with your day. Thank you very much indeed. And yeah, hopefully see you soon at an event or something down the line. Carrying the Kana Cup. Exactly, excellent.

Kaival Patel (52:11.486)
Yeah, great idea.

Kaival Patel (52:17.506)
Thank you.

Kaival Patel (52:21.406)
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks guys. Thank you. Bye.

Andy & Chris (52:24.428)
Keep well. Cheers Gabriel. Thanks very much.


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