Dentology Podcast with Mark Topley

Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Mark Topley

Episode release date – Monday 14 August 2023

Andy & Chris:
So another podcast here we go yet again. Here we are Dentology podcast. And we are- Welcome every listener and viewer, anyone viewing. Which is rare but mainly looking- And we are over the 100 Mark. We have issued over more than a hundred episodes of the Dentology podcast. Scary isn’t it? It’s quite remarkable. Quite remarkable. And today, today we’ve got a guest joining us I’m very excited to talk to. It’s Mark Topley and Mark is the founder of Purpose Driven Business, a qualified educator and fellow of the Institute of- Corporate Responsibility and Sustainability Professionals. That’s a mouthful. That’s not easy to say, is

Mark:
it.

Andy & Chris:
it? And UK Dental Industry Leading Authority on ESG and CSR, which we’ll no doubt find out more about. Welcome, Mark, how you doing?

Mark:
I’m doing very well thanks mate, it’s lovely to be here and thanks for the invite.

Andy & Chris:
No, not at all, not at all. Should be interesting. I’m looking forward to it. Lots of initials in there. There are. Well, what I love that there aren’t many people in your space. And I think there’s lots of people that know they should be doing more, incorporate it to a point in their business. But it’d be really interesting to dig into what it actually is and how you go about involving it in your business with your team, getting people on board with it. So we’ll get to that later. But to start with, let’s kind of find out a little bit about… where you come from. So in what ways did your parents set you up for the person you are today? What was childhood like?

Mark:
Oh,

Andy & Chris:
This

Mark:
goodness

Andy & Chris:
is where we

Mark:
me.

Andy & Chris:
lean

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
in and sort of like…

Mark:
We mean,

Andy & Chris:
Very

Mark:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
thoughtful. Yeah, leaning

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
in and giving us some insights.

Mark:
Well, my parents are fantastic and they didn’t intend to be parents, I think that’s fair to say. My mum was 18 by two days when I was born and

Andy & Chris:
Whoa!

Mark:
my dad was 19, so they were teenage parents and back in those days it was like, right, shotgun winning. And it wasn’t quite

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
that. They got married, they got together. was a challenge for them because they didn’t expect to be

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
married. They had me and then a couple of years later my brother came along. So they were very young parents.

Andy & Chris:
How did their parents react?

Mark:
I think my dad’s side was typically kind of matter of fact and stoic. My mum’s side were a little bit more, oh my goodness, what’s happened kind of thing. But they were both sets of grandparents, they were very supportive in those days from what I remember. I remember

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
spending a lot of time with my grandparents. you know, late 60s, early 70s, and it was like, okay, we’ve both got to have jobs. And

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Mark:
so, you know, mum would work the nights and dad would work the days. And so I think the biggest thing I learned from that was the whole thing of work ethic and, you know,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
crack on. You know, if you’ve got a responsibility, you’ve got to follow through on it and you’ve got to do what it takes to… to make things happen. And so I think from an early age, it was I saw people getting on with it, no matter what the

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
circumstances might have been, to make the best of what the situation kind of is. So I think that was a big thing. I think extended family was important because we had to rely on grandparents quite a lot. So the importance of… not just being the nuclear family but the people outside it was key. They had good friends, they modelled friendship to us and adventure as well. When I was around about 10 I think it was, we had family that had moved to South Africa in the 60s and We, at the time, I think probably they would say slightly naively, my parents decided they were going to emigrate to South Africa around about 1980. and because we had family out there and Dad had been offered a great opportunity to start work as a farmer, he’d kind of done whatever it took in the first 10 years

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
of to kind of make ends meet and it was now he had a chance to train and so he went out and trained as a dairy farmer, worked alongside one of my great uncles, which was a fantastic experience and that was kind of like well we’re prepared to up sticks and go and do something different in

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
Now, as it turned out, it only lasted about 18 months, two years, because the regime at that point was pretty hideous and that

Andy & Chris:
I’d

Mark:
became

Andy & Chris:
say

Mark:
quite…

Andy & Chris:
the political at that time in the 80s. Ooh, interesting.

Mark:
Yeah, it was during the time when Steve Vico was murdered, you know,

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
those sorts of things were going on. And I think they moved out thinking that it would be okay, and then it became clear that it wasn’t. But it gave us…

Andy & Chris:
Did you all move out Mark? Did you stay back here with grandparents or did

Mark:
No,

Andy & Chris:
you

Mark:
we

Andy & Chris:
all

Mark:
all

Andy & Chris:
go?

Mark:
went, we all went.

Andy & Chris:
Oh

Mark:
So

Andy & Chris:
right.

Mark:
all four of us went and it was an emigration. You know, it wasn’t

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
a, we’re going for a trip and see how it goes. It was upstix.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
And so that was like, well, you know, that taught me a lot about adventure.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
And I think, you know, both of them have always worked very hard. They’ve just retired in the last 18 months, which has been fantastic for them. But yeah, those key things I think, you know, work ethic, taking your responsibilities seriously, extended family and a sense of adventure I think will be the main things I took from

Andy & Chris:
And they’re

Mark:
it.

Andy & Chris:
quite young, aren’t they, as parents? In relation to you, it must be quite

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
interesting in the fact that they’re not far advanced in your

Mark:
No?

Andy & Chris:
years, really.

Mark:
No, it’s

Andy & Chris:
I

Mark:
very

Andy & Chris:
suppose

Mark:
tight for any person.

Andy & Chris:
when you went to South Africa, they were sort of late 20s, and

Mark:
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris:
society now is of a ilk where people kind of just start in their own families, late 20s, early 30s.

Mark:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
Things have shifted, I think, back in your parents’ day. People perhaps did have children a bit younger than they do today, but it’s just interesting you’ll have people just Starting their parenthood journey in their in their late 20s early 30s and by your experience your Parents have already got two children. Yes, and I’ve ever great you to South Africa I had two years out there and now it sounds like coming back to the UK Which is a like you say it’s an amazing adventure to happen. So yeah

Mark:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now they’re very young and we’re getting closer in age as well because as I get older, you know, that kind of 17, 18 year gap,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Mark:
you’re

Andy & Chris:
that’s right, yeah.

Mark:
almost part of the same generation.

Andy & Chris:
They’re almost like an elder brother, isn’t it? I remember my dad, he’d think he had, he’s, there was something like 16 years between him and his youngest brother. So that’s not dissimilar

Mark:
No,

Andy & Chris:
to

Mark:
no,

Andy & Chris:
you

Mark:
no.

Andy & Chris:
guys really. And he said it was quite weird because people are like, oh, is this your dad? No, this is my brother.

Mark:
Yeah, we got out in the pub a lot. Once I turned 18 and we went to the pub together because, you know, he’s only sort of mid 30s. So,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Brilliant. And then, jumping forward, you then qualified and became a teacher, which I must admit, doesn’t usually surprise me. You have a very thoughtful, considerate style. My father was a teacher. So obviously growing up, I ended up coming into contact with lots of teachers and not kind of through school, but just like the friends that he had, lots of his friends were teachers. So it didn’t surprise me when I read that you were a teacher. And What did you, as a teacher, what did you learn by way of transferable skills that kind of helped you as you move forward? Because teaching is not an easy job to do. So what were the things that you took from it that have helped you going forward?

Mark:
I think, I think, I think, I mean, my, my people skills have got much better over time. I don’t think I was particularly good people person. I was great with the kids. We had a lot of fun.

Andy & Chris:
Ha ha ha.

Mark:
That was all fine.

Andy & Chris:
Were you secondary school or a secondary

Mark:
Primary.

Andy & Chris:
school teacher? Primary, right, okay.

Mark:
I started out in Hampshire back in those days, had middle schools, so they would.

Andy & Chris:
Ah, yeah, okay.

Mark:
with year seven in a junior school and then he went to secondary at year eight. So I did two years of year seven and two years of year five.

Andy & Chris:
Right.

Mark:
And yeah, I think the main thing it makes you be is organized. It makes you organize your work

Andy & Chris:
Ahem.

Mark:
in a way which is gonna be manageable. It means you have to try and break ideas down into things which are. you know, kind of digestible for people. So you’ve got to

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
make it interesting, you’ve got to make it simple without simplifying it. And you’ve got to be able to communicate that and to sell that to people to get them

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
to buy into an idea. So yeah, presentation, organization. interpersonal skills I think and then being able to teach I think you know the process of taking somebody through a process of learning

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
which isn’t just about you know Well, here’s the content, now off you go. It’s,

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
okay, there’s the content, let’s talk about that and interact with it, and then let’s put that into practice, because that’s the learning journey. It’s not

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
what we traditionally think, which is the, right, I’ve been to a lecture on how to be a leader, now I’m a leader.

Andy & Chris:
So I

Mark:
There

Andy & Chris:
must

Mark:
you

Andy & Chris:
be a leader. Yeah.

Mark:
go, so, no, no.

Andy & Chris:
But so much of it’s about delivery as well. I’m sure the teachers we all remember from our school days are those that had passion and energy. And it might not have been a subject we were that into, but we were drawn into it just because they had so much passion for what they were talking about. And in those environments, you can’t help but learn because you just get sucked in with the emotion of it. I love the phrase Mark just used, making it simple but not simplifying it. It’s a lovely way, because that sort of says to me, it’s a bit like listening and hearing, isn’t it? It’s that thing, I’m going to break it down for you, but I’m not going to simplify what it is.

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
That’s a nice phrase, actually, I like that one. But then you, obviously, being contained within four walls of a classroom wasn’t enough for you, and you wanted something that, I think you said, you wanted something that enabled you to travel a bit more. So what direction did that take you in?

Mark:
Yeah, so I’ve been, while I was teaching, I started to do some work in North Africa with a friend who had partnered up, his organisation partnered up with, here’s another acronym for you, Integrated Holistic Approach Urban Development Project, IHAUDB, which is an absolutely fabulous project in the slums of Addis Ababa. And it’s an integrated holistic approach to urban development. And so I did a couple of trips with him on the teacher side. So I did some teacher training. My wife came out with me on the second trip. She was originally trained as a nurse. So she did some work in nursing. So we did this sort of typical volunteering type thing

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Mark:
where you use your skills overseas. And that was great. That kind of gave me the bug for that. I’d also at the time started working in music and so was doing a lot of the weekends and it became clear sort of towards the end of my fourth year in teaching that actually that this direction I wanted to go in which was the music stuff, the project stuff, you know that kind of thing and teaching although it was great and I enjoyed it, wasn’t going to

Andy & Chris:
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mark:
you needed to. And so it was like, okay, I’ve got an opportunity to step out of this and let’s do it and see what happens.

Andy & Chris:
Brilliant. So how long did that process and venture last for you?

Mark:
So that’s when I became kind of like, I’ll do whatever’s next kind of thing. So having started out with a very traditional career. So I did the project management stuff for three or four years. I did music, music was a bit longer. They kind of overlapped and went

Andy & Chris:
Alright,

Mark:
alongside

Andy & Chris:
bye.

Mark:
each other because you were getting paid, you were working part-time over here and part-time over here. They

Andy & Chris:
Alright.

Mark:
kind of overlapped a bit. And then it was kind of towards the end of… gosh, whether this had been sort of late 90s, early 2000s, it was kind of like, I was about to go full on into the music thing, doing production management for a national music,

Andy & Chris:
Ah, well, okay.

Mark:
which was great. And it was all set up and I’d given up my job and then the funder pulled the money.

Andy & Chris:
Thanks.

Mark:
Ouch. So I learned to play golf badly. I bought a pair of set of golf clubs from the tip and went around the local golf course for a month because my wife was working at the time. She was at this point had risen to be like quite senior in the NHS. So that was great. I could just sit around and play golf

Andy & Chris:
House

Mark:
for

Andy & Chris:
husband.

Mark:
a month. Basically,

Andy & Chris:
How

Mark:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
did

Mark:
Not at

Andy & Chris:
your handicap improve? Did it get better?

Mark:
all. It stayed pretty.

Andy & Chris:
Oh, okay.

Mark:
It’s stayed pretty rubbish all the way through, but it’s good fun and a nice walk every now and

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Mark:
then.

Andy & Chris:
yeah, definitely, yeah.

Mark:
But yeah, and then I kind of started, I picked up a job at Dentaid on their fundraising communication site,

Andy & Chris:
Oh, okay.

Mark:
a bit of that with the charities and the organisations I’ve worked with, and that was

Andy & Chris:
Do

Mark:
where I started.

Andy & Chris:
you think going back to your childhood, do you think it was your parents and their sense of adventure that gave you almost the license and the permission to jump around a bit and try new things?

Mark:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
Because

Mark:
definitely.

Andy & Chris:
that’s quite unusual. For people of your age, it’s quite traditional for people to get a job, have a career for perhaps 10 years, then possibly look to change. But you’ve done quite young, you’ve done quite a lot of jumping around, which is fairly unusual for somebody of your age.

Mark:
Yeah, I think it was my parents, but also Jo, my wife, she’s very adventurous and spontaneous. And she was like,

Andy & Chris:
Hehehehe

Mark:
right, we’re gonna do this, we’re gonna do that, and we wanna try this. It’s a little bit whiplashy at times because it’s like, what are we doing

Andy & Chris:
No.

Mark:
now? In fact, almost to the point where it’s ridiculous, we just celebrated our… seventh year in the same house and that’s the longest by a long short that we

Andy & Chris:
I

Mark:
have

Andy & Chris:
don’t

Mark:
ever

Andy & Chris:
know, okay.

Mark:
so um and she’s like getting twitchy and itchy feet i’m like no we’re gonna stay

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Mark:
here for a while

Andy & Chris:
yeah. My

Mark:
but

Andy & Chris:
wife’s

Mark:
yeah

Andy & Chris:
not like moving houses, but she moves all the furniture around. I say to the kids, you know, my entire life as well, I’d come home from the office and find out that you’d walk into your bedroom and find out your bed had moved to a different side and she’d moved all the wardrobes around. She’s just constantly moving things around. Fortunately, not moving houses, but it’s not quite the sort of like roller coaster, but it’s a bit like, what? Why has the sofa moved?

Mark:
you’re on your toes.

Andy & Chris:
So you mentioned Dente, which kind of is our segway across into dentistry, but you say you got into dentistry through an accident involving a Ford Fiesta, a dentist and a curry. Sounds like a joke, isn’t it? I was going to say, there’s so many questions. I think we should keep quiet and get you to explain this story.

Mark:
Right, so around about 2002, a good friend of mine, Ian Wilson, we’d met in the same church and they were the only people we could find to drink wine with on a Monday night.

Andy & Chris:
Ha ha

Mark:
We didn’t have kids but they did, but they liked sitting outside and you know with a bottle of wine on a Monday night. So we became good friends and he subsequently had started Bridge to Aid and moved out to Tanzania. On the first summer that he was back, he asked me to, he didn’t have a car because obviously he moved overseas. He said, well, if you drive me to do this presentation I’m doing for Dente, I’ll buy you a curry. And so I never wanted to turn down a curry. I said, that sounds really good. Excellent, let’s do it. So we jumped in my wife’s Ford Fiesta.

Andy & Chris:
Excellent.

Mark:
drove over to Dente, which is about an hour from where we were living at the time, and he did this talk and it was part of Dente’s 10th anniversary celebration at the time, and they were bringing different people in to do stuff. And that presentation, the presentation that he did about what he was doing, but also what I learned at Dente about oral health in developing countries,

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
kind of really brought me up short and it was like… Flippin’ A, this is a real problem

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
that nobody’s thinking about. And I guess because I’d always been somebody that tried to make things better or particularly cheer on the underdog or

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
fight for the causes which weren’t the most prevalent ones, I

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Mark:
was like, okay, well, I’ve just lost my job. or I just lost the contract I thought I was going to have. I’m not doing anything else. They need somebody to come in and help with fundraising. So I’ll go and do that. And so I went and worked with Dentaid. The first thing I did was got told I was going on a plane to China to walk the Great Wall with about two weeks notice, which was

Andy & Chris:
Excellent.

Mark:
interesting. Yeah, because at the time it was because Luke, who was the chief executive at the time. His wife Jenny, who’s a dentist and was working alongside us, she was pregnant and he was like, I’m not going to China, my wife’s just become pregnant so I’m going to stay around. You get to go on this trip. So I did Great Wall of China, which was great fun,

Andy & Chris:
Wow.

Mark:
and then came back and subsequently after that we started working in partnership with Ian on the whole volunteer programme thing, which is what eventually took us to. to Tanzania. So

Andy & Chris:
Bye.

Mark:
it was more, it was an incident, but it was an accident, but it didn’t involve anybody, any crumpled zones or anything.

Andy & Chris:
It’s quite funny, I think I met Ian with dentist Anna Curry, but no full fiesta. Oh really? I remember him telling me the stats for Tanzania and it was like, flip. You just, you know, that sort of, I can’t remember what it is now, but it was something like, you know, for eight every million patients or something, there’s like one dentist or something. And he said, you know, people travel. It was, it was mind blowing really, because you sort of don’t think about it. I’ve only met Ian a couple of times, but you know when he’s in the room, don’t you?

Mark:
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Andy & Chris:
He’s got, he’s loud and there’s presence. He’s got quite a loud voice. Yeah, but not just a loud voice, he’s got a presence, hasn’t he? You know, you’d know when he’s in the room. Yeah, he’s a nice guy. And I think you need people like that doing the work that he was doing. You need people with that sort of energy. But what a great introduction to dentistry for you in the great world of China. What’s that, two weeks in? That’s not bad, is it? Whatever it was.

Mark:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
You’re

Mark:
it was

Andy & Chris:
off.

Mark:
great

Andy & Chris:
Thank you.

Mark:
fun. Great fun.

Andy & Chris:
So hearing your story so far, it isn’t that surprising that you now have a business that brings on leaders, is very focused around purpose and building purpose driven businesses. And by purpose, we’ve got you down. There’s the environmental, social and governance, which is the ESG bit. And then corporate social responsibility, the CSR. I love a TLA. Exactly. What does that mean to you? What does that actually look like? This has partly been built out of your own experience in Addis Ababa, working with Bridge to Aid, listening to Dente. But what does it look like to you?

Mark:
I think, I think if you go, when you go back to the sort of origins of business, they’re always about solving a problem. It wasn’t necessarily about always the profit motive, although that was definitely part of it. But you look at the history of really good companies, you know, you go back to the beginning of John Lewis partnership, Cadbury, those sorts of companies. They had a holistic approach to business, which was that everybody has to benefit from it. And then,

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
you know, along came Milton Friedman and kind of, you know, shareholder capitalism and all these sorts of things. And what happened suddenly was, OK, well, people are just part of the one of the resources that we use in order to generate a profit. And it doesn’t really matter. You know, and we will upsize or downsize depending on what it is that we need in order to maintain margins or to keep shareholders happy. And I think I think what What’s happened particularly in recent years is that people have started to buck that, they’ve started to see that the excesses of shareholder capitalism have had a huge cost. not just in terms of the human fallout when people are laid off, but

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
because of a short-term need, the environmental costs, people like BP cutting corners and then spilling millions of gallons of oil into

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
the coast of Texas. starting to go, hang on a minute, surely your businesses should be for good, shouldn’t they? They should be, yes they need to make a profit, but actually should that be the expense of the environment and its stakeholders? And you combine that with the fact that people are now going, actually I don’t want to go, you know, like you were saying Chris, about you start a career and you’re off you go. It’s like, no, I want to, when I go to work, I want to know that I’m… making a difference, that

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Mark:
the workplace gives a crap about the environment and the people that work for it. And I need a sense of purpose in that what is it that we exist to do? Now with dentistry it’s not to fix teeth, it’s much more than that, it’s about the impact that you make on the patient, whether that’s

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
from a point of view or a confidence point of view or a well-being point of view or a general health point of view, but the impact that you make as a business. on a day to day basis, which you need to plug people into, because that’s where the sweet spot is. And this is why people have fallen down with the recruitment crisis, because they’ve gone to an extra 50p an hour, or

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
an M&S voucher at Christmas. It’s like those extrinsic things don’t… hit it anymore, you’ve got to go into

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
it, which is sense of purpose. So purpose driven business for me is one that has clearly identified what difference it makes in the world and then it is using that purpose as a means to make commitments to looking after the environment, caring for its people and making a difference in the community.

Andy & Chris:
You can see how it’s way more than just kind of people quite often have vision statements or business plans and they write them They put them in the drawer. They shut the drawer never opens again And what you described there is it is it has to be core to the business Yeah People in there have to believe it and live it and it almost drives everything they do as opposed to one of these things that you Kind of just tick a box and say that it’s done So it’s hard though, isn’t it? Because you have to keep reinforcing it, you know to say to people that this is the reason we do stuff We have

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
our part of our vision written on our wall. And it’s people sort of look at it and you sort of say, well, we actually, because it’s Frank Taylor’s, you know, we value and sell dental practices, but actually you do change people’s lives,

Mark:
Thank

Andy & Chris:
but

Mark:
you.

Andy & Chris:
you quite often forget about that bit because the team just do their job, you know, which is that’s their job. And it’s trying to get them to say, no, there’s more to it. There’s more to it than that. What’s the resistance to it, Mark? Is there a perception that this is going to cost me more money? It’s going to be a more expensive way of doing business if I start incorporating ESG or CSR. Or is it a bit wacky? Yeah. A bit sort of like all touchy-feely. Yeah, what are the resistance points to people not grabbing this? Because logically it makes perfect sense. Why wouldn’t you do it? But there must be resistance points because I don’t think as many businesses grab hold of this perhaps to the extent they should.

Mark:
Yeah, I think the two big things are, well, it’s three actually. The first one is time. Is this going to take loads of time to do? Because we’ve already got enough to do. Thank you very

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
much.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
The next one is cost. So is this going to cost us more money? And the third one I’ve forgotten. But those two are

Andy & Chris:
Two’s

Mark:
the

Andy & Chris:
good,

Mark:
main…

Andy & Chris:
two’s great. Who needs three?

Mark:
It will come back

Andy & Chris:
No,

Mark:
to me.

Andy & Chris:
but what really good that demonstrates that we’re getting there, because there also used to be three. I was going to say age. I was going to say you forgot the age. I don’t know whether older business owners would be a bit more resistant. It’s interesting. I wonder whether they’re sort of like, ah, sort of this nabby pamby, you know. I think that’s probably just a change thing generally. I think as you

Mark:
Remember

Andy & Chris:
get older, I

Mark:
what

Andy & Chris:
think

Mark:
the

Andy & Chris:
you’re

Mark:
third one

Andy & Chris:
less

Mark:
was.

Andy & Chris:
willing to take on change. Oh, you remember the third one.

Mark:
Yeah, the third one is understanding what it is because you know, you’ve got, is it gonna cost me more money? I haven’t got time to do it, but I don’t really understand what it is. And

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
I think the big thing is that when you talk to people and you say, look, 90% of this you’re doing already. It’s just,

Andy & Chris:
Vimeo.

Mark:
and it’s not about doing loads of extra stuff. It’s about changing the way that you do what you do. Because you are looking after your team. You

Andy & Chris:
Right,

Mark:
are.

Andy & Chris:
okay.

Mark:
managing your waste, you are, you know, you’re choosing where to procure. The community side of things is probably the area where if you’re not doing it, then that isn’t something else to add on.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
But they don’t understand that, but they also don’t understand the value that it adds and the trend of what people are looking for when they’re looking at business now, because it’s becoming more of a fundamental.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm. And I think that’s a key point because brutally, you know, as shareholders, stakeholders, people very quickly focus on the bottom line. And if there’s a tangible business reason to get on board with it, that will resonate with certain people. What does it practically look like in a dental practice? Where a dental practice has a really good strategy in place, what do those practices look and feel like?

Mark:
So they’ve identified their purpose to start with and they’ve boiled it down into some messages which they repeat on a regular basis. So they’re weaving it into their huddles. So it always starts with purpose and why are we doing this? So they’ve gone through a process where they’ve identified that as owners and then they’ve talked to the team about it and said, look, this is what we do. This is what we believe. And so on the basis of those things and those values that we have, these are the things we’re committing to in terms of CSR. What they’ve then done is they’ve done an analysis of, okay, well, this is the gold standard and this is where we are now. Where are we gonna start? And they’ve put in place a plan to take them to reaching that standard over a period of time. They’ve got somebody in charge of it, so they’ve appointed somebody. who is responsible for managing the plan and putting the plan into place. They’ve engaged the team in the process and the team are enjoying taking part in events, doing things whether that’s in practice or supporting initiatives that are going on. So it’s become part of their day today. And they’ve also celebrated it in a way where they’ve either got a certification or they’re using it in their social media, but they’re using it in an authentic way, which means that people can draw the line between, okay, that’s who they say they are, that’s what they’re committed to, and that’s what they’re doing about it. Because what people usually do is they go to the last thing,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
they say, oh, we’re going to do this fundraiser for such and such, and people go, that’s nice. But

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
it can be that if it’s a one-off, and there’s

Andy & Chris:
Ahem.

Mark:
no other evidence around it of commitment, then that can often fall flat on its face. So. They’ve been through a process basically to just to say, we’re gonna do this, we know where we are, we know we want to get to. And then each of the three strands with our people, which includes patients, so there’s ethics around patients, how we treat the team, how we look after the team, what we do for the team, the environments, they’ve got a plan for sustainability and they’ve got a plan to engage with their community. And what you typically see in those kind of practices is that it really boosts morale When you lift the lid and you say, we’re going to do this, most people under 40 will go, fantastic, this is brilliant. This is, you know, finally, because they’re the ones that are pushing the door. You know, millennial generation and generation Z, those are the values-based generations which are pushing for this kind

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
of stuff because they know that individual action isn’t enough. We’ve got to see businesses take action as well.

Andy & Chris:
Is there a challenge in there that lots of business owners are the other side of the age line? Because I get it’s like, it’s not necessarily a top down or a bottom up thing, the whole business needs to engage in it. But where lots of business have slightly older principles, business owners, is there sometimes resistance going back to that thing about change? Is it something that’s perhaps needed in businesses but not necessarily being adopted at the top end?

Mark:
Yeah, I think from my experience, because we’re still very much at the kind of early adopters into that first part of the bell curve, it’s not such much of a thing because people know that they should. So they’ve either got teenagers or teenage kids or they’re

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
being exposed to younger people. I think as time goes on, the change thing will become a deal. But

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
you know, the interesting thing is, is that both consumer pressure and regulatory pressure is going to be brought to bear, particularly on sustainability, because there’s no way that government targets can be met around carbon reduction

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Mark:
sustainability without using the tools that they leave us that they’ve got in the healthcare

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
system. You’ve seen this in the NHS already. So tendering, procurement, commissioning, I’ve all got CSR aspects to them. And I get approached by companies, quite often who say we want to bid on this thing but we’ve got no strategy for it. So they see the commercial side of it, so that’s the thing. But I think resistance to change isn’t so much because for me, the people that come to me tend to know that they need what they need.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
I expect that will change when CQC starts to add some more questions into the inspection.

Andy & Chris:
And just on that, what is it that you can do for dentists and dental practices? What are the services that you offer? You can obviously help them design a strategy, but there’s more to it than that.

Mark:
Yeah, so there’s a number of options. So the entry level option is, I’ve got free guides on my website. So my specific website for responsibility and dentistry is called ResponsibleDentistry.com. And on there, there’s the free resource. If you want to do a lunch and learn to get your team on board, then there’s something called Sustainable Smiles, which is an hour of interactive video and take them through. One up from that is short video course called Sustainability in 60 Minutes which walks you through with all the templates of how you put the plan together and then the other the next one is what I call the Responsible Dentistry Academy which is a year-long done-for-you service so I’ll come in work with you with your team get your team engaged and then hand hold you through the process and support you for the rest of the year to make sure things get embedded so depending on your price point there’s different resources available.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm. I tell you what would be useful, Mark, if you could give us those, if you could email me over those links, we’ll stick them in the show notes.

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Cause it sounds like, like you say, you’ve got an offering for everybody. They can either kind of, you know, do it as a DIY project or get you in and you can do the whole kit and caboodle. You,

Mark:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
you also work outside of dentistry, don’t you? You don’t just work inside dentistry. How does, how does dentistry? Your own sanity. But how does dentistry compare to other sectors and professions in terms of where it’s at? Is it leading the way? Is it a trailer? How does it sit?

Mark:
I wouldn’t say it’s leading the way. I think it’s different depending on what part of dentistry you work in. So independence, the work with them is driven by principles who understand that this is something they need to do.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
they buy into it because they’ve read Simon Sinek or they understand some of the stuff around the Gary Vaynerchuk covers and those sorts of things. So they

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Mark:
understand about purpose and about doing the right thing. DSOs, corporates, they are willing and it’s also tied to funding nowadays, which is interesting. So I know that there are discounts for lenders if you’ve got a sustainability

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
space in your place

Andy & Chris:
No, no.

Mark:
because there’s a huge pool of ESG money floating around that nobody’s

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
going to be able to put. So they’re more keen. The trouble with DSOs is that they are, and I’m not sure where we’re at with this at the moment, but they’re so busy acquiring that whether they can… the bandwidth to focus on ESG is less. And so, you know, the DSOs that I work with, that’s the same for all of them. They’re willing, there’s a strategy in place, but how fast we can go is dictated by external forces. But I think they understand, particularly the sustainability side, they understand it, but from a funding point of view. So I think those are the things. What I would say, the main difference between… dentistry and the other sectors I work in is that they are probably five or ten years ahead in terms of understanding it as a core business principle.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
And so there’s less persuasion and less messing around to do because it’s like, no, we’re going to do this and we’re going

Andy & Chris:
Well.

Mark:
to do it in a nice and structured way. But I think part of that is down to the fact that… there isn’t, there’s no real catalyst for it within dentistry. And where it could come from the DSOs, their, their eyes are on different balls

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
and, and either buying or selling or getting ready to flip.

Andy & Chris:
And are we moving into a phase where… Different motivations, I suppose, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. And are we moving into a phase where it’s almost becoming a non-negotiable? Whereas for a period it was like, oh, it’d be a nice thing to do. It feels like we’re in a phase where actually it is really important, we do need it. Are we at the tipping point where soon it’s just going to be, you just won’t have a modern business with the right culture if you do not have these as core to how you behave?

Mark:
Yeah, I think we’re already there, to be honest. I mean, you read Larry Fink’s letters, so the president of BlackRock,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
one of the biggest investors on the planet. And the last three, four years, one of the main topics of his letter to people they invest in has been about sustainability and responsibility. So it’s gone from being a nice-to-have to a good thing, to now being actually one of the major risk factors that you’ve got to look at if you’ve got a

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
significant business, because your social license to operate, your ability to recruit and retain good people, and protecting yourself against the ramifications of climate change have become major things. So

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
that’s on a macro scale. And then I think

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
on the high street where dentistry primarily sits, I think people are… The stats say it’s 88 to 96% of people look for good CSR in a business when they’re shopping around.

Andy & Chris:
Well,

Mark:
Now that’s

Andy & Chris:
hmm.

Mark:
very subtle and people are prepared to pay more for services which are sustainable, which there’s a responsibility. But you’ve only got to look at how the major brands are trying to showcase their credentials

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
to see that actually this isn’t just a… They’re

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
not doing that for the benefit of their health, put it that way.

Andy & Chris:
And the media, the media were getting quicker at calling out big businesses where they’re perhaps, you know, purchasing materials or using factories that aren’t, don’t have great standards. The media are very quick to call those people out and they then have to go into kind of a repair mode. So actually would make much more sense just to have a well-led business. Well, my wife will only, she’s got some, I don’t know, wherever it goes to some website where she’ll look at clothes shops and… people that produce clothes shops to see what their rating is as

Mark:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
to, you know, where their clothes are produced and stuff like that. And if, if it’s not, you know, like unfortunately a lot of the, or not unfortunately, that’s probably good for me actually, but a lot of the top brands are not necessarily the best when it comes to, to where their clothes are made and

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
the circumstances. So, so she will be, she’s very driven by, um, that the CSR and what actually is happening to those people. I think more and more people are, aren’t they? They’re looking at it and saying, well, I’m not gonna buy it from someone who, you know, puts someone and pays them 10p or something, I don’t know. Yeah, no, it’s important. Because

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
actually you can affect that, can’t you? It’s an interesting one really. Climate change, yeah, we can all go electric and don’t use our gas boilers and all that sort of stuff, but you somehow sort of feel almost that’s potentially a big drop in the ocean. But if you can stop spending money on something that you know, it’s your way of contributing to it. I think it is an interesting thing. But also in terms of shareholder value, if you’ve got people who, yeah, you’re saying it’s very high 80% into the 90% where people either consciously or subconsciously consider the CSI or anything when making purchases. If that happens and you don’t have a positive strategy, that is going to impact shareholder value. So it’s going to get driven through because ultimately people that invest in businesses, they do it for a financial return

Mark:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
and they want to do it in the most ethical way possible, but they do it for a financial return. And if that financial returns being impacted by not having a positive strategy, then it gets kind of pushed and pulled in lots of different directions, isn’t it? It’s like

Mark:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
our time pledge.

Mark:
absolutely. Yeah. Woo.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah. Mark, you’ve done a shed load of stuff. What would you take as your biggest learning from your entrepreneurial journey? What’s the biggest thing you’ve learned from it? Because you’ve had quite a varied career, haven’t you?

Mark:
Yeah, I’m glad you said varied.

Andy & Chris:
Yes!

Mark:
Some would call it checkers. What

Andy & Chris:
Don’t be holding yourself.

Mark:
have I learned? I think what I’ve learned along the way is that you don’t have to do the same job in order to fulfill… your mission purpose, what makes you tick in life. But there are loads of different ways to do that. And I’ve been very fortunate in that, you know, I had the outlook and the support and the partner to pursue that and to try things out, I think. I think, and I don’t think that… fear should ever be a factor in decision making. Because if you make decisions based on fear, that closes you down. As

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Mark:
scary as it can be, it’s always much better to make decisions based on your values, what’s important to you and who you are as a person, rather than, oh, I need to pay the mortgage or I need to do that. And that’s not to say we can be irresponsible. Sometimes you have to take a punt. I was out for a beer with a friend of mine last night who’s actually a presenter on BBC Radio. Nothing to do with…

Andy & Chris:
Not there. I like the quick follow up. Disclaimer.

Mark:
Yeah, but he was saying, you know, I don’t know how you do it, you know, because obviously he’s in a salary position

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
and, you know, he’d like to do some stuff outside, but he’s like, it’s really hard, you know, how do you sleep at night? And it’s like, well, the alternative is that you, you know, if you’re not doing what you want to do, and that’s not to say employment is a bad thing, but… If you’re not doing what you want to do and what’s important to you, then you live that life of quiet desperation where

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
you’re most waiting for the weekend and for retirement. Whereas actually my mission, my whole passion is about helping people to build places where people love to come to work because they get that

Andy & Chris:
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark:
purpose and it’s just about a paycheck and that means you have to take some chances.

Andy & Chris:
What’s great about that Mark is you may be aware of the Australian palliative care nurse, Brony Ware, who’s written the book about the regrets of the dying. And what you’ve said is exactly that, which is kind of do what you want to do, you know, and don’t be scared to live the life you want to live. Because then

Mark:
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris:
when we get to old age, you won’t have the regrets of not doing the things you thought you could have done. You know,

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
you’ve actually done it. Success is never guaranteed either way, but at least you did what you wanted to do. It’s easy to say though, isn’t it? You know, we all suffer from the little voice. I think something that you had, which is different for lots of people, is you had an upbringing that gave you a sense of adventure and freedom to do that. I think lots of people get pigeonholed quite young into getting a job, earning some money. You end up with expenses that broadly match your earnings. So it doesn’t give you that freedom to go and move sideways and try something different. But I think that kind of upbringing for you, it almost built into a case of, well, what’s the worst that can happen? And that gave you some freedom to try some different things. This isn’t pointed at you because we all have them, but what are your failures that you cherish the most? What are the things that have gone hopelessly wrong that you go, that was a fabulous lesson?

Mark:
Oh gosh. Failures, I mean, obviously the thunder pulling, the

Andy & Chris:
Mmm, the music bit.

Mark:
musical was a big one. And actually it opened the door to the next chapter, which was fantastic. And so I think,

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
you know, life does that. Failures, I think, you know, I think there’s been… many, whether it’s new products or stuff I thought would work and didn’t. Back when I was with Bridge

Andy & Chris:
We know

Mark:
to Web,

Andy & Chris:
that

Mark:
you

Andy & Chris:
feeling don’t we?

Mark:
did fundraising initiatives, we just thought this is going to really work. and they don’t. And I think the more you get, and it’s almost like you’ve gotta get punch drunk before you kind of realize it, but the more you get hammered, the more you realize that actually, the quicker you can go through that process of either getting angry or upset or drunk or whatever,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
the place where you go, right, so what’s next,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, fire fast.

Mark:
the better

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
because it’s history.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
and the longer you dwell on it. And that’s

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
why

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
it’s quite difficult because it’s like, well, okay,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
next.

Andy & Chris:
It reminds me a bit of Ed Sheeran that somebody said to Ed Sheeran, how is it you write such incredible, memorable songs? He says, you write a hundred crap songs. He says, you won’t start writing great songs. And it’s a bit like what you said that you just have to keep trying to things, accepting that the, you know, failure is okay because you will learn things from that and it will make you better. So you can then make a better decision or a better product or a better service or a better whatever.

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
And. the likelihood of just landing on that golden idea

Mark:
Mm.

Andy & Chris:
without any failure before. You know, it’s like Edison and the light bulb. It’s rare, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, it’s unlikely. What was it, Starbucks,

Mark:
certainly.

Andy & Chris:
180 something declines. I even read today that there’s something, some bloke, he set up Nutmeg, is it Nutmeg? I don’t know, some IT thing. He just died from cancer, but he set up a bone cancer in Namers, and it’s now, he sold it to someone for 700 million pounds. but he got rejected something like 44 times before he even got it going.

Mark:
Mm

Andy & Chris:
Wow.

Mark:
hmm.

Andy & Chris:
It’s like relentless.

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Mark:
And I think that’s part of, I think we need to be careful. And I think the reason why, you know, people under 40 struggle more with this is because like, my youngest is about to finish primary school. And the motto of this school is dream, believe, achieve. And

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
I’m always really naffed off with that because it’s like it’s missing a stage. It’s like, you know, dream, believe, fail, achieve.

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
You know, it’s like, because, you know, we, we do people a disservice when we give them the idea that actually, you know, there’s this, this route and you take it. And it’s like, no, there’s a whole lot of crap and mistakes.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah. It almost should have do something, shouldn’t it? You know,

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
before,

Mark:
Take

Andy & Chris:
you know,

Mark:
an action.

Andy & Chris:
you’ve got to actually, yeah, you’ve got to do something. Just because I believe doesn’t necessarily mean I always want to be a rock star. That’s never going to happen. That’s where you build your resilience, isn’t it? If you

Mark:
Absolutely.

Andy & Chris:
just try things, everything goes well. You’re never going to have any resilience. So in your life, when you face a challenge, you’re not going to know how to cope with it. And I think for kids, the sooner they get that in their armory, the better, which is why. you know, school sports days, everybody wins, they get some medal. Okay, it’s lovely. But the brutal reality is the way that sport is configured. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the way sport’s configured, you have winners and losers. It’s just the way sport is designed, that’s it. And it can be done in a very soft and caring way, but I think getting kids to understand that life isn’t always about you will win, isn’t

Mark:
yet.

Andy & Chris:
a bad thing to learn because, you know, grownups, they’re just big kids. We all started out as kids, we’re just big ones. So the

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
sooner you can teach the young kids what it’s like to be a big one. Fail is okay. Yeah, in a caring way. Just accept it and move on. Isn’t a bad thing. You’ve mentioned a couple of times, Mark, about your… I’m getting quite deep here. It is. You sort of danyanced around your close shave with the music industry and obviously that production thing got pulled because of the funding. But you did do backing vocals on a top 10 single, didn’t you, back in the day?

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
I’m sure you’re hoping we’re going to gloss over this. I’m going to have to get a YouTube clip up.

Mark:
I’m sorry.

Andy & Chris:
So give us the story on that.

Mark:
So one of the bands that I worked with was actually, the way I got involved, and this is how music works a lot of the time. So my wife, Jo, she trained as a nurse with a girl called Sarah. Sarah’s married to Stuart. Stuart is the drummer in this band. And so I start helping them out on the weekends when they’re like playing, you know, ditty little gigs here and there. Anyway, they go the distance and they’re recording their album. And they said, oh, come over for dinner. We’ll take you out. So we arrive

Andy & Chris:
Alright.

Mark:
at this place where we’re supposed to be, you know, to meet them to go out for dinner. And they’re in the process of recording the album. And in the process of recording the album, the producer says, Oh, we need some BVs on this one. So, um, and it

Andy & Chris:
What

Mark:
was

Andy & Chris:
was his

Mark:
a bloke.

Andy & Chris:
name? Stuart?

Mark:
No,

Andy & Chris:
Stuart. Copeland? No.

Mark:
no.

Andy & Chris:
Ha ha ha! I must admit, I jumped to Copeland. In my head I’m thinking, woo! Ha ha ha!

Mark:
Yeah, that’s on a police

Andy & Chris:
I thought

Mark:
album.

Andy & Chris:
for a minute there was going to be a sting in the tails of this story. BOOM! Ha ha!

Mark:
So basically we arrive and they’re there and we’re asked to sing BVs on the chorus of this song so

Andy & Chris:
Brilliant.

Mark:
that was pretty much it. The song was called Deeper, it’s by a band called Delirious and it was around about…

Andy & Chris:
Oh, I know Delirious. I know Delirious, yeah.

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
One of my friends used to play guitar with him.

Mark:
Oh really? Which one?

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, that would have been… Oh, now what’s his name? Steve, can’t remember his surname. His brother used to be the drummer, I think. It might have been a later version. Paul, something rather, Paul Evans, I think

Mark:
Oh

Andy & Chris:
his

Mark:
yeah,

Andy & Chris:
name

Mark:
Paul

Andy & Chris:
was.

Mark:
Evans, yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Mark:
Paul

Andy & Chris:
yeah, yeah.

Mark:
replaced Stuart when Stuart left the band.

Andy & Chris:
Right. Oh really? Right yeah. Steve Evans, yeah he did some work. I think he might have done a… Did he… did they just do a recent tour or something of… because I think one of my other friends went and played keyboards for him. I mean I think they might have done something in Amsterdam recently.

Mark:
Okay, yeah

Andy & Chris:
I bought one of them. I got one of their albums. I wonder if it’s on it. I think it might be actually. Well there we go. Look at that. Yeah flip. The one I’ve… the album I’ve got is in a little tin.

Mark:
Yeah, no, that’s before this album. So that was live in the can, which is a live

Andy & Chris:
Right,

Mark:
album.

Andy & Chris:
but I

Mark:
And

Andy & Chris:
know

Mark:
then…

Andy & Chris:
Deeper, I do know that one. Yeah, right, excellent. There we go, so when we finish, we’re gonna get up on YouTube. It’s really good, actually. It’s a good band, actually. They made some great songs. History Maker, I think, was one

Mark:
I

Andy & Chris:
of those,

Mark:
did,

Andy & Chris:
wasn’t it?

Mark:
yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Anyway, sorry, we’re having

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
a normal moment here. What a very cool story. What a very cool story. Mark, we always like to finish up in the same way with our guests, and the first question we have for you of two is, if you could be a fly on a wall in a certain situation, when would that be and who would be there?

Mark:
So I little think about this and you know, there’s loads of different moments in there. I mean, I’ve always been somebody that’s admired people that can overcome adversity. And so I don’t know if you guys remember 2019, England were playing Scotland at Twickenham in the Calcutta Cup. and in the first half, England went 31 points ahead.

Andy & Chris:
Yep.

Mark:
And I think that the Scots scored a try just before halftime, but basically went in like… 25 points down and everybody was like, that’s it, it’s all over. And Gregor Townsend was the coach at the time, gave a team talk. Now I can’t remember the three things that he got them to do, but he basically said, forget everything else, I want you to do these three things. And it was all stuff they could control. So I think it was like, hardest into the tackle, first the breakdown and look out for each other. And those were the, I think those were the three things that he said. the story knows that they came out and

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Mark:
scored four unanswered tries, went seven points ahead with a couple of minutes to go and then England scored to make it 38-38. And I think I would just would have loved to have been on the wall

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
when he gave the team talk and then when they came back in afterwards because it’s a great lesson for people that it doesn’t matter what the score is,

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Mark:
if you focus on the basics and keep going then you’ll get a result. And that’s all you get. The thing you ask them to do is do that and then you can be proud because you

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Mark:
had no idea that they were gonna score that many points. But so yeah, I would like to have been on the…

Andy & Chris:
Oh, that would be fabulous. And also it’s that thing you focus on the things you can control. You can’t

Mark:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
control what the other team do, but you can look after yourself. Yeah, yeah,

Mark:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
that’s

Mark:
absolutely.

Andy & Chris:
right. Yeah. Brilliant. Probably mentioned Braveheart or Bannockburn. Yeah. And if you could meet somebody, Mark, if you were given the opportunity to sit down with a pint of beer, glass of wine, cup of coffee, who would you like to meet?

Mark:
There’s loads, too many. Who do people choose? They choose sports people or politicians or…

Andy & Chris:
It’s massively varied. Yeah, we’ve had some people that have gone very personal. No one’s gone for a fictitious person, have they? No, no, no. Everyone’s gone for real people. Because we said, you know, you could be like, you might want to meet Jay’s bond or something, but everyone’s gone for a real person. Yeah, we’ve had some people that have dipped into kind of family history for whatever reason. But lots of them are fairly high profile people that, you know. There’s some that are a bit off the mark, and we’re like, okay, never even thought about that person. So yeah, it’s a white, so it’ll be great.

Mark:
Okay, all right, I’m gonna be naughty and have two.

Andy & Chris:
Okay.

Mark:
Bill McDermott was, he was the president and CEO of SAP, he’s now got his own business. He wrote a really good book called Winner’s Dream, which I read back. when I was just first starting out as a leader. And he’s well worth a look up because just a very interesting backstory, upbringing, you know, some of the influences that were on his life were really interesting. Still, he’s still alive. And the other one would be Ben Stokes, I think. I thought

Andy & Chris:
No.

Mark:
I’d love to sit down with Ben because… he comes across as just a very normal guy and I, you know, he’s had various struggles with adversity, with his mental health and all those sorts of stuff. I just love to share a beer and get some time with him. So yeah, Bill and Ben, there you go.

Andy & Chris:
That’s what it might sound like after a few beers. After a few beers,

Mark:
I’m sorry.

Andy & Chris:
yeah. Mark, it’s been brilliant, like I say. Thank you very much indeed for your time. I think the way you approach it, it feels like this huge congruence between who you are and what you do. It flows through your career, how you approach things, and there’s a real deep passion on your side to try and make businesses, but society better through the stuff that you know. And we said it’d be more than 22 minutes, and that was right. Exactly, exactly, look at that. Ha ha ha. Excellent, been really good, really good, really enjoyable. You made it, you made it. Yeah, that’ll be, appreciate your time today, Mark.

Mark:
No

Andy & Chris:
Thanks

Mark:
thanks

Andy & Chris:
very

Mark:
guys,

Andy & Chris:
much.

Mark:
cheers.

Andy & Chris:
Cheers, dada.