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Dentology Podcast with Suganthan Mahalingam


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Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Suganthan Mahalingam

Episode release date – Monday 22 January 2024

Andy & Chris (00:00.118)
good day when it’s a podcast day isn’t it? It’s a great day I love a podcast day yeah it’s intense as in conversations but it is really good fun because we learn so much about the people we talk to. Yeah I think it’s that sort of curiosity thing isn’t it? I think chatting to people. He knows the other people. It is isn’t it? It’s fantastic and today we’re very fortunate so today we have Suganthan Mahalingam joining us otherwise known as Suggs and Suggs is a dentist and there is quite an interesting twist. A bit of a combo isn’t it? I’ve never met that combo. It just surprises me and we would explore this as we go that there are so many dentists with creative bents to what they do and I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Anyway, welcome Suggs, how are you?

Sugz (00:46.176)
Yeah, not too bad, not too bad. It’s good for you, isn’t it?

Andy & Chris (00:48.638)
Yeah, no, we’re looking forward to having the conversation today. I mean, there’s definitely two sides to your world with the dentistry and the copywriting, which is a fascinating combination. And as I say, we’d explore that kind of creativeness. But before we get to that, can you kind of give us a sense of who you are with a little bit of background? Can you look back on your childhood and kind of tell us what that looked like? And they might give us clues as to the person that you’ve become today. This is where we lean in, isn’t it? Yeah, exactly. Look over to you, Suggs.

Sugz (01:16.768)
Yeah, well, I wouldn’t say I had like anything particularly remarkable in terms of academics. So I think growing up, I was kind of somewhat average, went to a grammar school, I think kind of a typical dentists kind of upbringing with regards to academics. I wasn’t like a straight A student or anything like that. I took a lot of graft, a lot of failing, a lot of resets. Yeah, but I got there eventually.

Andy & Chris (01:40.191)
A lot of failing and a lot of recess.

Sugz (01:45.656)
But I think in terms of the extracurricular side of things, I’ve always been involved with creative kind of pursuits. So when I first started, I was a graphic designer when I was about 12, 13. Then I started doing, yeah, then I started doing web design. I’d made music for about 10, 15 years. So yeah, yeah. So I wrote my own stuff, I performed, I produced music, I engineered. I did quite a lot of stuff.

Andy & Chris (02:05.142)
Well, write your own stuff and things like that.

Andy & Chris (02:13.974)
Wow. From what age was this? Sucks, what age were you saying? What, from 12 you sort of started all this, or were you doing?

Sugz (02:16.136)
And I’ll say probably…

Sugz (02:20.892)
So when I was 12, I started the graphic design stuff and that was kind of like a little, so I never had a side job like a lot of people did when they were teenagers, I did that on the internet. So I was kind of making little bits of money just doing freelance design for people. And then the music stuff, what was it?

Andy & Chris (02:23.948)

Andy & Chris (02:29.349)

Andy & Chris (02:35.886)
Cool Did they did these people ask you they know you were these people know that it was a 12 year old boy who was doing? their design for them

Sugz (02:44.116)
No, no, they didn’t. I had to just often lie. So, I mean, I probably shouldn’t say this. I shouldn’t say this on air, but like even, so PayPal, you’re not allowed to have a PayPal account unless you’re 18. But at the time, no, actually at the time, they were a lot less strict. So I just didn’t have any, you didn’t have to have ID. You just set it up, but the downside of it is, yeah.

Andy & Chris (02:49.158)
I’m sorry.

Andy & Chris (02:58.236)
Right, use your dad’s ID or something.

Andy & Chris (03:04.93)
Wow, you just set it up.

Bloody hell, entrepreneur at 12, flipping egg.

Sugz (03:12.152)
The downside of that approach is they ask you eventually to verify your ID and if you use a fake name then all of a sudden you’re screwed.

Andy & Chris (03:18.158)

Andy & Chris (03:21.46)
then you’re in trouble. So when was the music then? Was that sort of after that or?

Sugz (03:27.436)
So the music came in probably about 14. Yeah, I just had an interest in it and my friends were all into it and we just kind of were doing music for a while. I was recording videos and stuff like that. And then once I got to uni, started performing live. And yeah, I mean, I think…

Andy & Chris (03:41.486)

Andy & Chris (03:48.322)
So what type of music sucks?

Sugz (03:51.224)
So it was hip hop, it was like a lot of hip hop music. So yeah, I had a few people that I used to kind of make music with and it kind of tapered off as I started to work as a dentist, but that’s another story.

Andy & Chris (03:54.128)
Ah, mm, mm.

Andy & Chris (03:59.79)

Andy & Chris (04:04.27)
So you’ve also got this hugely creative side to doing design and music, performing, that side of things. Whilst there is a very kind of ascetic creative end of dentistry, it tends not to be there from the very beginning when you’re at dental school. We hear from lots of Asian dentists that perhaps their parents say to them, you’ve got three choices, you can be an accountant, a lawyer, or four choices, an accountant, a lawyer, a dentist or a failure.

Was that similar to your kind of direction of travel? Ha ha

Sugz (04:36.208)
Yeah, yeah, pretty, pretty much. Pretty much. I mean, if you’d asked me at 15, what did I want to become? I would have said a musician. Like I would have wanted to like, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I don’t regret it because I think ultimately it’s like a super unpredictable journey to follow and it’s really, I know I’ve got friends who are musicians and it’s like, it’s really, really difficult. They have to go through, yeah. So I wouldn’t, yeah, look it back. I wouldn’t have, I don’t regret it, but.

Andy & Chris (04:43.362)
Oh wow. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (04:51.699)

Andy & Chris (04:57.296)
out. Yeah.

I think part of the problem is that modern culture only shows us the phenomenal success stories of, you know, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift and all the other people that are right at the top of the tree. You don’t see the legion of, you know, thousands who are struggling just to get by. Wasn’t it something, I remember Spotify, wasn’t it something like there’s 60,000 tracks uploaded every day or something? I mean, you’ve got to be able to be identified as something out of that volume. It’s like a lot of it’s luck, isn’t it? I think a lot of it’s chance.

Sugz (05:09.955)

Sugz (05:31.568)

Andy & Chris (05:31.596)
think if you’d have pursued, as quite often they say that, you know, you love your hobby, but then you have a job. And if you’d have gone down that path and it would become your career, was there the potential that perhaps you wouldn’t have been in love with it to the extent that perhaps you are, because it would have been so important to you in terms of your livelihood?

Sugz (05:53.184)
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think when you are focused on something that you love to put money on the table, it starts to become, you know, you’re no longer. So the thing I like about these creative pursuits is just, there’s no rules. You know, I just, whatever’s in my head, I can put it out there and I don’t have to care what other people think. Whereas when you’re planning to put money on the table, you’re all of a sudden, you’re trying to accommodate to a market and you’re trying to, you know, you’re no longer making what you wanna make, you’re making what other people want you to make.

Andy & Chris (06:12.269)

Andy & Chris (06:17.155)

Sugz (06:23.26)
and that’s quite a difficult thing to navigate.

Andy & Chris (06:27.402)
Just winding back a bit, was there an awkward conversation with mum and dad about, hey, I want to pursue my music career? And they were like, yeah, that’s great, but actually get a proper job. Was there anything like that or was it sort of…

Sugz (06:40.826)
No, do you know what? My parents were always super supportive about it. They, well, I mean, don’t get me wrong, they didn’t want me to pursue it as a full-time thing. They were always very much like, you know, have your grades there and keep the academic side up, but whatever you want to do in your spare time, they didn’t care about it. And they were supportive of it, in fact. And my dad still says to this day, like, why don’t you still make music? And I don’t know.

Andy & Chris (06:49.302)

Andy & Chris (06:59.342)

Andy & Chris (07:05.554)
Interesting no medics in the family or anything like that or were there or? Okay

Sugz (07:09.396)
My sister is a doctor, yeah. And most of my family, I mean not my parents, but uncles and cousins and things like that, they’re all medics.

Andy & Chris (07:19.762)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Do you know one of the things I love that you mentioned right at the beginning, which I think is, is a really important thing. And it’s come out in a few is, is the fact of you weren’t super academic and you failed and had to reset. And I think that’s a real character building. I know it sounds a bit naff, but it, but it sort of is, isn’t it? Because you’ve failed on something. You’ve got to try and do it again. It’s brilliant. That’s brilliant.

Sugz (07:42.38)
Yeah, you’re right there because I felt like when I got to uni, because I’ve had so many kind of having to reset and redo papers and things like that, going to uni and failing, you know, the odd viva or practical exam or whatever it was, it didn’t hit me as hard as other people in my year who literally have never failed in their life and it hit them really hard and I felt really bad for them because I was like, mate, you just knuckle down and you’ll get through it. Like, it’s not that big a deal.

Andy & Chris (08:00.503)
Mm. Bye.

Andy & Chris (08:04.312)

Andy & Chris (08:07.618)
Mmm. Hmm. It’s a great one though to be, I’m sorry, it’s a great one though to be at 18 and 19 to almost have that resilience already developing within you where you can affect, mentor your mates who are saying, look, you know, it’s cool. Don’t worry about it. You said when you were at school, you much preferred words than sort of numbers and science. So was that?

Sugz (08:23.904)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (08:31.658)
quite a shift for you to move from something where you could display your creative flair through words to numbers and science, which is pretty rigid, it’s quite binary, it’s kind of this or that. For you academically, was that quite a hard shift?

Sugz (08:46.552)
Yeah, that was the biggest struggle and I’d argue that’s why I found it so difficult. So I think up until my GCSEs it was all fine, it was kind of plain sailing, I was okay. When you had to go down to A levels and you have to choose maths and science, those were by far like not my strengths, you know, I was bottom set, maths, you know, I wasn’t great at maths, actually the stuff I was good at I didn’t do for A level and the reason for that was because it wasn’t conducive to doing something like dentistry, you can’t study French and…

Andy & Chris (08:51.542)

Andy & Chris (09:02.9)


Andy & Chris (09:10.016)

Andy & Chris (09:15.514)
Yeah. Art. Art and drama, what do you mean?

Sugz (09:16.316)
know be a dentist like you know yeah exactly so um yeah so it wasn’t conducive to that so i think um i found it really difficult that was a big challenge like a big mindset shift because i am not well now i’ve become like adaptable and able to kind of adopt that kind of mindset that’s needed for dentistry but initially it was really difficult

Andy & Chris (09:33.966)

Andy & Chris (09:41.638)
But whilst you’re portraying an individual who isn’t naturally gifted academically, you obviously have the tools to get through, don’t you? Because you say you failed, lots of resets, you kind of failed a module, you redid it, you got it. Yet you have to have a degree of brightness to get yourself through dental school. So once you really knuckled down and you got into dental school, did you find it comfortable?

Sugz (09:50.564)

Andy & Chris (10:06.97)
Were you constantly feeling you were at your absolute limit, or did you find yourself in a lane where you started to understand what it required to get through dental school?

Sugz (10:16.62)
I’d say in the first two years, I found it really, really challenging, mainly because I think a lot of dentists can empathise with this. You go from being spoon-fed and told what to do and what to learn and what to revise to here’s the resources, do what you will with it and you just have to sit this exam and I found that really difficult, especially the workload that was required. It was really challenging and I think the moment it connected for me was when we started seeing patients. That was the moment that I was like, okay.

Andy & Chris (10:20.628)

Andy & Chris (10:44.856)

Sugz (10:45.076)
here’s something that can actually engage me rather than, even to this day, I don’t really like reading papers and textbooks and stuff, you know?

Andy & Chris (10:48.392)

by you.

It sort of fits in quite nicely. We do some courses sometimes and we say, you can have the education, and I won’t mention anyone here, but there’s lots of professors that we all meet who are the best at what they do, but you would not want to drink in the bar with them. But there’s lots of very successful dentists who we can’t make any judgment over clinical, but they’re probably not at the same level of as a professor, but boy are they successful,

Sugz (11:13.784)

Andy & Chris (11:24.828)
they entertain it and good fun because they get on well with people. I think it sort of fits into that. You’ve obviously, your empathy is with people. Yes.

Sugz (11:34.296)

Andy & Chris (11:34.782)
Yes. So you currently work in a mixed practice in Hertfordshire as an associate working in that practice. Is dentistry without access to the creative side enough for you or do you need that kind of creative vent with the other side to your life to make each side worthwhile?

Sugz (11:56.728)
Yeah, I’ve always known, even since I started dental school, I always knew I wasn’t gonna work full time. It wasn’t something that I wanted to do even to this day when I have had to work five, six days a week. It really drains me because it’s that very logical, like you said, that very binary mindset. I mean, dentistry, don’t get me wrong, it is creative in some regards, but a lot of it is rules and regulations and…

Andy & Chris (12:11.22)

Andy & Chris (12:17.699)

Sugz (12:25.604)
formulas and things you have to follow to get a certain result. Whereas I feel like with my creative pursuits, like copywriting and the other stuff I’ve done in the past, there aren’t as many rules. You do what needs to be done to get the job done, you know? And I think that’s what appeals to me more. So that’s why I need that creative outlet just to kind of, it’s freedom. That’s it. That’s exactly it.

Andy & Chris (12:28.931)

Andy & Chris (12:39.774)

Andy & Chris (12:45.614)
Freedom isn’t it? I suppose freedom of thought. Yeah. So you so how many clinicals a week do you do?

Sugz (12:52.896)
So I do four days a week at the moment. Once, yeah, one Saturday a month. It is still quite a lot to be fair, but I’m making it work so far and I don’t have any kids or anything like that, so it makes it easier.

Andy & Chris (12:54.735)
Oh, so still quite a lot. Yeah, still quite a lot, yeah.

Andy & Chris (13:04.724)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I suppose it’s quite good as well because I imagine you know four days and a Saturday Every other you can earn you can generate decent revenue Which then enables you to hopefully have that time for your freedom and creative spirit to be released. Mm-hmm

I think that’s one thing that dentistry is amazing for, isn’t it? That it does enable people to work kind of, you know, six days, five days, four days, three days, two days. Yeah. I don’t think many do one day. I think one day is quite hard just in terms of the practice you need to kind of stay fresh. But lots of people are around a kind of three day mark at the moment. And we’ve actually done a survey and the results are coming out very soon around, you know, the amount of time that people want to work and do work. And it’s certainly full.

Sugz (13:33.103)

Andy & Chris (13:53.812)
and back from the traditional five days and many now don’t do four they do three days which brings challenges separate challenges for the profession in terms of access to dentists and you know the dental days available. So just on the writing side of things you know for lots of us writing normally sits in a fairly narrow channel of just a communication with a client, a communication with a friend, it’s a whatsapp, it’s an email something like that.

Andy & Chris (14:23.732)
thing that you take from writing from a sort of creative standpoint.

Sugz (14:28.128)
So the writing that I do predominantly now is copywriting. So what a lot of people don’t understand, it’s nothing to do with kind of legal terminology. That’s what I thought when I first heard about it. I thought it was some sort of legal thing. It’s nothing to do with that. I think the easiest way to explain it to people is it’s kind of salesmanship in the written word. So it’s just, how do you sell something by writing? So in…

Andy & Chris (14:38.659)
Mm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (14:52.802)

Sugz (14:53.468)
traditionally it was print so you had magazines and you had letters that went out to people and things like that whereas now a lot of it is websites and landing pages and Facebook ads things like that so that’s a lot of what I do now and a lot of what kind of takes my interest is that

Andy & Chris (15:10.306)
And who do you do it for, Suggs? Who’s your clients as such?

Sugz (15:15.14)
A lot of them are healthcare businesses, so not just necessarily dental. There are a few dental companies I work with, but there’s just healthcare software companies, things like that. That’s what I do a lot of the work with now, whereas initially when I started out I worked with everyone. I worked with plumbers, I worked with electricians doing their ads, things like that.

Andy & Chris (15:16.813)

Andy & Chris (15:33.72)
How did you get your clients? How did you sort of just ping up an advert or something? How did that sort of work?

Sugz (15:39.348)
So starting out, there was a, there’s a site called Upwork, I don’t know if you guys are familiar with it. So I started out on there and a lot of the work on there is kind of very cheap labor. So you tend to get a lot of kind of people from, you know, lesser developed countries that come on there because it’s easy for them to get work, but the amount they pay is not really, it’s not amazing. So a lot of people go on there for cheap labor. But for me, it was great because I just got to…

Andy & Chris (15:43.574)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (15:56.058)

Andy & Chris (16:01.477)

Sugz (16:08.792)
you know, practice my skills on kind of low leverage work really.

Andy & Chris (16:14.086)
It’s quite a good idea actually, as long as you get to fine tune some of your skills. When you’re then doing more expensive bits of work, maybe more demanding people, then that’s great, it’s quite smart actually. And you didn’t have to pretend to be 18. No, no. But particularly because you’ve got kind of your dental work that’s kind of providing an income.

Sugz (16:27.736)
No, sorry. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (16:35.67)
You know, you can invest in developing the skill, understanding the market, you know, finding clients, building clients. This year, I think probably more than any, AI seems to be on the super thing you’ve got. Isn’t it the word of the year in the Oxford dictionary? Yeah, well you’ve got open AI in there. There’s another word that I had no idea what that was, but now I know what RIS means. You’ve got open AI in there, chat GPT and Google Bard and a bunch of others. Can you see a time where it’s going to…

Sugz (16:56.632)

Andy & Chris (17:05.514)
AI will negate the need for copywriters or are they never going to get good enough to be better than a human in terms of psychologically what it is we want to see and what works for us?

Sugz (17:19.48)
I think it’s an interesting one really, because I think with AI, what people don’t understand is it’s not, it gathers information and it learns information at a really fast rate. So everything it comes up with, it’s not creative. It doesn’t create things from a variety of, it doesn’t do what humans do. For example, we have a variety of experiences, we draw from them, and then we articulate that through writing. Whereas AI will study thousands, millions,

Andy & Chris (17:44.014)

Sugz (17:48.056)
God knows how many data sets and compute what it thinks would be good copywriting. So I think the reason why I don’t believe it’s gonna completely take over copywriting and kind of creative pursuits is because it doesn’t understand emotion. And I think we’re a long, long way off. I don’t think in our lifetimes anyway, and I’m not a tech guy, so I don’t know, I might be completely wet off here, but I don’t believe it can process human emotion.

So it’s very difficult. So with copywriting, for instance, and sales just generally, let’s ignore copywriting, sales, everything is about emotion. It’s not really about logic, which is what AI is very good at. It’s logical things. Emotional things, it’s not so great.

Andy & Chris (18:24.54)

Andy & Chris (18:31.381)

Yeah, that’s true, isn’t it? Actually, I know. And also I think I can remember there was something, I think on the BBC, you know, when AI was sort of like everywhere and they did this thing where they said, can you tell the difference between something had been written by a person and something had been written by AI? And it was quite interesting because a lot of people were able to identify the AI bit because of the, I think maybe like the phrasing and stuff like you were saying is it wasn’t.

It’s not how we would do something. It was logical, but not emotional. I think quite often you do read things and it just doesn’t land. And you can’t quite pinpoint why, but there’s just that quarter of a percent in you that you read it and it just feels mechanical. And it almost feels a bit perhaps corpora.

Sugz (19:06.646)

Sugz (19:20.961)

Andy & Chris (19:22.846)
Right, it was written in a very safe, almost perfect way. But some of the things that we remember the most, like some of the best adverts we see are quite edgy. You know, some of the best catchphrases or strap lines you see are a bit edgy. And you’re right, that probably comes from a human with a very particular thought process that goes behind that.

Sugz (19:44.888)
That’s the thing. And I think also with AI, you have to be able to prompt it. So you have to be able to direct the AI to do what you want it to do. It’s not enough just to be able to tell AI, for instance, write me a Facebook ad for my company because it will just, yeah, exactly. It’ll come up with really generic things. So you do need someone with the expertise and someone who understands psychology and things like that to prompt it to do the work. So I use it myself. I use it for…

Andy & Chris (19:50.043)

Andy & Chris (19:58.738)
Yeah, come up with an idea.

Sugz (20:14.824)
idea creation and kind of content ideation, but I don’t use it to write my copy because when I’ve tried it, it comes off very rigid and wooden.

Andy & Chris (20:20.885)

Andy & Chris (20:24.27)
Oh, right. So for almost like a pre-positioning to give you some structural ideas, it’s good. But when it actually comes down to the words. And in terms of what you create, how do you get into that kind of state where emotionally you’re able to articulate what your client needs in a way so that somebody goes and being a prospect or a raving fan of that business?

Sugz (20:49.816)
So I’d say a good 80% of my processes, the research, is this the background is doing the research into the ideal customer. So a lot of what I do is, and actually, this isn’t actually the writing bit, the writing bit comes fairly easily, I’d say, once you understand the market. So for example, if someone came to me and they wanted me to market their product to say dentists, which,

Luckily, in my case, when I work with dental companies, that bit’s easy because a lot of the time, I’m marketing to me. So I’m marketing, what do I want, exactly. So it’s understanding the psychology behind why people want what they want, pain points, so what are the things that really kind of drive them to want to purchase something. And a lot of the time, it’s a negative emotion. It could be anger, it could be fear, whatever it could be.

Andy & Chris (21:23.926)
Hmm. Yeah. What do you want? What would you want? Yeah.

Andy & Chris (21:43.113)

Sugz (21:46.828)
And then it goes from that to then figuring out exactly what it is that you want to write. And then that’s what I mean. The writing process comes fairly simply after that. It’s the research that is everything.

Andy & Chris (21:55.502)

It’s quite interesting. I read an article about some bloke talking about using AI for sales. And it’s exactly what you were saying, Suggs. You were saying you can ask the AI for what is the problem, then you can ask the AI for the solution to the problem. He said, but then you have to write it because he said what the AI will write will not resonate with people. He said you can use it to a point where he said it will help you.

Sugz (22:23.649)

Andy & Chris (22:28.44)
But then he said there’s a there’s a point you then have to take it away and say right I’m now gonna put a person into it I thought it’s because I was thinking that’s a clever way of using it But I think as humans we’ve evolved rapidly this year in terms of our thinking. I think we started 2023

Sugz (22:29.102)

Andy & Chris (22:43.33)
with people assuming that AI was going to, you know, wipe us out as a certain way. There were going to be no jobs. I was going to do everything. And now we’re only at the end of 2023 and people already saying, it’s going to be a tool that’s going to help me, but it’s not actually going to do the thing I want. It’s going to give me a spread structure, ideas, systems, processes, and point me the right direction, but to make it really resonate and have an emotional element to it, that still needs the human to step in and just finish it off. Exactly.

which has no relevance for you because you don’t listen to Terminator.

Sugz (23:18.384)
I mean I think we’re all just predicting aren’t we at this point, we don’t really know, I mean AI is rate of evolution is so quick when it comes to AI compared to, because I kind of heard about it in 2020 I would say, people were using it then and it was it wasn’t great but it was you know it was okay and then now we’ve got to the point where you know we’ve got GPT-4 which is the latest kind of

Andy & Chris (23:22.042)
Mmm, no no.

Andy & Chris (23:44.482)
Hmm. Wow.

Sugz (23:48.504)
able to transcribe things in images and you’re able to feed it images and then it can dissect it and come up with different ideas from an image, let alone text. So it’s already come a long way. So who knows.

Andy & Chris (23:58.188)
Mm. Well.

Andy & Chris (24:02.846)
Yeah. So when you create the word for a particular client in terms of, you know, setting, putting their proposition in front of the right people.

Does how those words appear, is that part of what you do as well, or does that then become a marketing function? And I’m thinking things like how long the message is, what font style, what color, where it might appear on the page. Because I’m just thinking that quite often we get so many messages come at us. What you don’t want is your amazing words lost in the presentation.

Sugz (24:36.204)
Yeah, well luckily it’s fortunate that I had the graphic design background early on, so that’s helped me a lot because both the words and design have to be congruent, they have to be able to, you can’t, just because I’m a writer I can’t let the words dictate everything, I can’t just force the words to do all the work because sometimes, for example, Facebook

Andy & Chris (24:41.182)

Sugz (25:03.448)
A lot of us see it on Facebook or Instagram, whatever you want to call it, meta ads now. It’s driven a lot by the visual and the writing has to be quite short because people aren’t generally gonna read a long piece of text on something like Facebook. Otherwise, if they see a big block of text, they scroll past it. So for instance, I publish a lot on LinkedIn and I publish maybe three, four times a week doing different posts and…

Andy & Chris (25:11.096)

Sugz (25:31.308)
what I’ve learned is when I type in paragraphs, so when I type, let’s say it’s five, six line paragraphs, people tend not to wanna read it. When I break it up into sentences and I put spacing in between it, it becomes a lot more digestible because that’s just how we process information on the screen.

Andy & Chris (25:45.93)
Wow, attention span. Out of interest, Suggs, have you noticed over the time that you’ve been doing any change in interactions? So, you know, if we become even less engaging on certain things, yeah, because I remember once when there was something, some, you know, what was it, you?

Took 11 seconds or something. That was their attention span and then someone said it’s now Eight seconds. So gee, do you then have to sort of adapt your style because people are Getting so many inputs unless you are really smacking them in the face with a fish then they’re not paying attention

Sugz (26:26.384)
To an extent, yes, but sometimes I get clients who believe that too strongly. So they always say when I come back with copy, they say, make it more punchy or make it shorter, make it more direct, you know, and they said they quote that exact stat. They say, oh, you know, people have attention spans of three seconds, five seconds, eight, whatever the latest study is. And my argument against that is if you care enough about it, you’ll probably read the whole thing. So there’s a, there’s a, there’s a copyright called Joe Sugarman. I don’t know if you guys have.

Andy & Chris (26:27.627)

Andy & Chris (26:45.226)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sugz (26:56.016)
come across him. One of the most famous copywriters, Admin, is what they used to call him. He always talked about if there was a 500 page book and it was written about your life, you’d read it end to end because it concerns you, it’s about you and it’s about your life and your tribulations and your trials. If it was about someone else, you’re not going to read it. In the same way with advertising, for example, or copywriting.

If you’re talking about someone’s problem and it affects them that much, they will read, it doesn’t matter how long, it could be 15,000 words, they will read the entire thing because it hurts them that much and they want to know everything about it. But versus if you give that same piece of text to someone who doesn’t have that problem, they couldn’t care less.

Andy & Chris (27:27.107)
Read it.

Andy & Chris (27:33.026)

Andy & Chris (27:42.634)
It’s really interesting, though, isn’t it? Because that’s going back to that thing of, as you were saying, so that you need to have the human emotion to work out what is going to resonate with someone. But also, it means that…

and I don’t mean this really, but it might sound a bit weird. You’re not just a copywriter or people perceive a copywriter as a bloke who just knocks up some words. You’re actually also saying to these companies, now, well, hang on a minute. Let me educate you in, in maybe how that sales process and funnel works. So it’s, it’s fascinating. You’ve got to have the, otherwise the danger is you just end up producing stuff that other people use that you know is maybe not the best way of doing it. So you’ve got to be quite resolute.

I think you could actually use it as a filter as well in the if someone’s not prepared to read the you know Three four five page or ten paragraph Messages that’s going out. They may have already discounted themselves through the filter That’s being your ideal candidate if someone’s prepared to invest a time Yeah, I think about this podcast the majority of people who tune into this podcast listen to it end to end

because they’ve obviously listened before, I hope, and they’ve heard something they enjoyed, and they know there’s gonna be good stuff through it. And so they’ll commit their time. Because, and that’s the benefit of doing long form things like this. We could just do 20 second snippets and write them on TikTok, but.

Yeah, I think people who genuinely want to learn and have more information coming their way are prepared to invest time And I wonder whether from going back to the copywriting whether those longer form messages Hmm actually can filter in the right sort of person who’s already invested time before you then have the conversation or send an email Or pick up the phone or whatever else it might be Amazing

Sugz (29:28.02)
Yeah, definitely. I think so a trend that’s coming back in is email newsletters. So a lot of people are focusing on that more so than they were before. So that was a big thing in the kind of 2000s, not that I knew much about it, I was like, what, eight? But you know, around that time, yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly. But around that time, newsletters were a big thing. And now it’s coming back.

Andy & Chris (29:41.963)

Andy & Chris (29:46.555)
You were graphic designer then?

Sugz (29:57.94)
into the swing and you’re seeing a lot of companies now and solopreneurs and small business owners that they’re beginning to put out these big newsletters and I sign up to a lot of them because obviously that’s the trade but I sign up to a lot of them and I read the ones that truly take my interest and a lot of them take about 15 minutes to read because it’s like almost like a long blog post.

Andy & Chris (30:06.574)

Andy & Chris (30:16.018)
Yeah, it’s interesting isn’t it? We used to do, I mean it’s interesting, we stopped it and then we’re restarting it again. Those newsletters we used to do. And the open rate was like 40 odd percent or something. It was like whoa. So do you write, obviously we’ve kind of focused on your almost kind of corporate.

Sugz (30:29.025)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (30:35.854)
creative writing side of things where you have a client, you do the research, you understand their ideal avatar, you then create a message that will resonate with that audience. Do you do other writing as well? Do you still write songs? Do you do poetry? Do you use that kind of creative? Can I add a question into that as well? What is the most fun thing you’ve had to do as you’re copywriting? And what is the worst thing you’ve had to do as a copywriter? I’m sure you could probably not discount that one. Anyway, going back to Andy’s question and throw that one in as well.

Sugz (31:03.72)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think in terms of the more creative side of things, I don’t make music as much as I’d want to. And the reason for that is, I think once you start working, your inspiration starts to go down the drain. It was different when I was in school or I was in uni. Yeah, fine, you’re studying a lot, but you’re going to parties, you’re out with friends, you’re seeing things, you’re doing things, and you can talk about it in your music.

Whereas once you start working and you enter the proverbial rap race, you’re kind of just you’re in the same routine, so you’re less inspired to talk about things and right now, for example, just the other week I was trying to sit down and just write a song, not to put it out, just for my own interest and I just couldn’t think of anything. I was just sitting there for a good half an hour and I just couldn’t think of anything, everything sounded cheesy, it sounded a bit, it wasn’t genuine, so I just thought, yeah,

Andy & Chris (31:34.865)

Andy & Chris (31:41.946)

Andy & Chris (31:50.512)
Hmm, yeah.

Andy & Chris (32:01.622)
Is there merit in rejigging your life in a style to create more experiences that would then feed back into the creativity? Is that because you’re spending too much time on the dentistry?

Sugz (32:12.384)
It’s possible, it’s possible, yeah. But I think also it’s the people you’re around, in uni for example, the whole time I was making music, I was around friends who were making music as well every single day. You’re in uni, you go to lectures with them and we talk about music together and it’s always in your head. And I’m watching music videos and interviews and I was so engorged and engrossed within that kind of scene. Whereas you’re absolutely right, once you start working, you just…

Andy & Chris (32:24.376)
Mmm. Right, yeah.

Andy & Chris (32:29.452)

Andy & Chris (32:34.157)

Sugz (32:41.76)
all you see are, you know, you just see patients and you see, all you’re thinking about is UDAs and gross figures and

Andy & Chris (32:45.006)
Yeah, pretty hard to do a hip hop song about endo UDAs and period. Yeah. Maybe there’s an opportunity. Might not be a best seller.

Sugz (32:50.176)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think it’s just, yeah, you don’t have that much inspiration. But I still have my fun doing copywriting. So, you know, that’s, I think in terms of the fun stuff that I get to do, it tends to be the stuff that the clients give me the most free rein on. They kind of just say, look, we trust you.

Andy & Chris (33:03.894)

Andy & Chris (33:13.048)
Ha ha ha.

Sugz (33:17.932)
go do what you’ve got to do. And for example, so the stuff I do now is kind of building out funnels, so I’ll write a whole landing page, things like that. And I like businesses that are not too serious. So they’re kind of, they’ve got a bit of a tongue in cheek brand, you know, you can write a bit more fun, jokey kind of humorous content versus something that’s very straight laced and you have to follow. So for example, in healthcare, the difficult things that I have to encounter are compliance.

Andy & Chris (33:36.875)

Andy & Chris (33:47.53)
Yeah, regulation I’d imagine.

Sugz (33:48.864)
especially obviously in dentistry and you have to, you can’t make claims that are crazy because you either get, not only get taken down off the platform, but you know, you’ll be, regulators will come down hard on you.

Andy & Chris (33:56.972)

Andy & Chris (34:03.91)
And what’s the most fun one do you think you’ve done?

Sugz (34:07.582)

I’d say it’s difficult to pick one, I’d say. I think, and also fun is, I’d say fun’s a kind of, I don’t know if that’s the right adjective for it. I’d say.

Andy & Chris (34:23.378)
Maybe out there, how about that? Maybe if we get the one that you felt was like, yeah, this was a really good bit of work that I felt was on the edge.

Sugz (34:32.9)
So there was a supplement brand that I worked with and although the ethics of the brand I don’t really know too much about, it was actually the time when I first started out on Upwork and it was a supplement brand and it was about prostate health and something like that. I don’t know how effective that stuff was and I didn’t know much about it but a lot of the jokes you could run, I’m not gonna repeat them, but it has a lot to do with men’s prostate health and men’s, you know.

Andy & Chris (34:55.696)
Ha ha

Andy & Chris (35:00.59)
Performance. I think Chris saved you there. I was thinking quick performance talk.

Sugz (35:01.888)
Yeah, performance. Exactly, that’s a great way to put it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I found that stuff quite funny because they were quite relaxed as well. So they kind of allowed me to flex my creativity with it and that was quite fun to do.

Andy & Chris (35:22.854)
Brilliant is um Accepting the compliance point is dentistry Quite a an open profession to creative messages, or is it quite? rigid and Because of the compliance is it is it hard sometimes to show the true creativity that you want For fear of kind of getting a bit too close to the GDC and somebody having a look at it and be uncomfortable

Sugz (35:52.732)
Yeah, for sure. I always find that and I find that’s why I don’t… So for example, I don’t work a lot with dental practices. That’s for another reason. I don’t think they need as much copy. I think a lot of it is that they have different demands for what they need. But I think with dentistry, you can only be so creative before you’re offending someone. And people…

Andy & Chris (36:00.227)

Andy & Chris (36:15.573)

Sugz (36:18.928)
especially in dentistry, we see it on dental Facebook groups all the time, people have strong opinions on what’s considered professional and what’s considered unprofessional. And yeah, you just have to tread very carefully to make sure that, and people will, inevitably with marketing, some people are going to like it, some people are going to hate it, that’s fine. But when you’re maliciously, and I’ve seen this, maliciously trying to shut someone down for what they’re putting out there.

Andy & Chris (36:26.461)
Yeah that is true isn’t it?

Andy & Chris (36:30.968)

Andy & Chris (36:38.41)

Andy & Chris (36:48.034)
That’s not good.

Sugz (36:48.16)
I think, you know, unless you’re harming people, I don’t see the point in, I don’t see why you’d take the time out of your day to do that.

Andy & Chris (36:51.35)
Mm. Yeah. But equally, I think where you take kind of the obtuse position, people…

can quite like that. They quite like, so somebody like James Watt from, from BrewDog. Um, I know there’s a bit of a history there in terms of his kind of leadership in that business, but BrewDog messages really stand out and the way he still tells stories, you kind of want to read them because, because they’re interesting. And I guess in, in an industry like that is easier and that doesn’t translate well into dentistry with, with so much structure. So there’s quite a lot of, of pressure on you, you know, not necessarily just in dentistry, but in healthcare, trying to

up with content that resonates with the audience for the product services that have been sold but also ticks the compliance box as well that’s quite a fine line to… It’s a hard balance isn’t it? Yeah. It’s a hard wall to gather, a war card I’d imagine.

Sugz (37:40.312)
Yeah, and I actually think, so the companies that I work with are clinician-led. They tend to be the ones that want to be more straight-laced and I don’t know if that’s just because naturally clinicians are very logical and they want everything to be, you know, follow a structure. So for example, I was once working with a brand that was led by a doctor, an orthopedic doctor, and I was, you know, I wrote the copy and everything was fine and he said, no, it’s too salesy.

Andy & Chris (37:53.463)

Sugz (38:10.224)
You know, he said, he said, doctors will see right through that. We need to include more numbers. We need to include more studies and we need to this and that. And I just said, end of the day, it doesn’t matter if you’re marketing to PhD students or, you know, quantum physics graduates. It doesn’t matter how smart someone is. They’re always gonna, emotions always gonna, you know, trump logic. So I think sometimes we can be guilty, especially a lot of us who are clinicians, be guilty of kind of

Andy & Chris (38:28.979)
Mm-hmm. Trump, yeah.

Sugz (38:40.292)
weighing in too much on the logic side of things. Like logic, you know, I think you lead with the emotion and then you justify it with the logic rather than the other way around.

Andy & Chris (38:45.59)
Mm-hmm. Have you ever had cards where you just said she I don’t think I could work with you

Sugz (38:54.164)
Yeah, yeah. Luckily, well, this is the thing, because of dentistry, it allows me that flexibility to say no, whereas I think if copywriting was my full-time income, I’d have to just say yes to everything, which would make it far more difficult. But I think because I have the luxury of just saying no, I often say no to anyone who micromanages. So if I’ve ever been, when I get micromanaged or I’ve got people constantly checking in or.

Andy & Chris (39:01.992)

Andy & Chris (39:07.729)

Andy & Chris (39:16.112)

Sugz (39:22.604)
on my Google Docs I’ve got people leaving comments constantly, it gets a bit draining and I just say look, I think it’s better to call it quits at this point because I don’t want to disappoint them, but in the same sense I don’t want to be annoyed, you know, I’ve had a hard day at work.

Andy & Chris (39:28.826)
Mmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (39:36.286)
Yeah. Well, you can’t be for everybody, can you? No. And I think that’s a great lesson that people need to learn is that some people you are and some people you can’t. I don’t know, so I think if you’re bringing in a creative person, you want them for their creativity. So they’re micromanaging them and commenting on every little apostrophe or comma or semi-coding or whatever else it might be. It makes no sense. It’s like, yeah. Why bar dog and bark yourself? Yeah.

Sugz (39:47.939)

Sugz (40:03.222)
Yeah, no it doesn’t make sense to me because sometimes I feel like they feel, I feel that they feel they could do a better job. So in which case, just yeah what, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Andy & Chris (40:11.23)
Yeah, which is why bother engaging you. Yeah, crack on and do it yourself. If we roll out, I don’t know, five, seven years from now, what do you think your future looks like? Do you think there’ll be less of a reliance on dentistry, more copywriting, or do you think you’ll still have that kind of balance in there? You have a bandana on your head. Yeah, but back to the songwriting. Yeah.

Sugz (40:30.42)
Back to it, yeah. No, well, that’s the aim. I mean, I think ultimately I don’t want to be solely focused on dentistry in five to seven years. That doesn’t mean I want to leave the profession. I still enjoy my job and I still want it to be there in some capacity, but I definitely want to reduce how much I do it, whether it will be copywriting per se that I’m doing, or it might be something else or I might branch out in terms of how, what I’m doing in the funnel.

Andy & Chris (40:43.216)
Mm. No, no. Yeah.

Sugz (40:59.876)
So I might do more marketing side of things. But I think that’s where I want my career to go at this stage.

Andy & Chris (41:01.329)
Okay, yeah

Andy & Chris (41:07.418)
It’s great to have the graphic design in your skill set, isn’t it, to go with the copywriting because then you’re not just creating words, you’re creating what something looks like that drags an attention. I think that’s a great combo.

Sugz (41:20.884)
Yeah, yeah, and that’s the other thing. I think if I was to branch out, I think because I’ve got those two skill sets already and I’m able to develop websites within Reason, I can kind of do the whole thing anyway. It’s just a case of getting the practice in and getting the reps in just like anything else. So I think, yeah.

Andy & Chris (41:40.664)
You’re saying in dentistry, it’s kind of hard in terms of some of the sort of copywriting and the need for it. Do you think within the profession, people attach the significance to the written word to the extent that they should? Because I’m more thinking about things like social media platforms. Dentistry is a very visual thing. If you scroll down a dentist’s page, you’ll see, you know…

smiley faces and teeth, or in the worst case, retractors and teeth. Sensitive content, isn’t it? But isn’t it? You see lots of that. And because it’s a very visual world, particularly on the ascetic side of things, is there less of a reliance and not the significance attached to words that perhaps there might be? Are people missing out on a certain proportion of their audience and target patients by not using words?

Sugz (42:07.5)

Sugz (42:29.36)
I think in the context that you described with Instagram, because it’s such a visual platform, written word probably isn’t as important. I actually think in terms of what the skills that copywriting teaches can be applied more to patient management. So a lot of the skills, in terms of all the skills that I’ve learned throughout, since the graphic design days to now, copywriting has been the one that’s the most transferable because I don’t just use it as a writer. The skills that I’ve learned are persuasion.

Andy & Chris (42:34.05)
Mmm. No.

Andy & Chris (42:51.754)

Sugz (42:59.248)
and communication and a lot of the principles within copywriting can be applied to the way that I talk to patients and you know yeah and things like I mean I know this is a dirty word in dentistry but it’s selling you know it helps me to yeah I know but yeah but it does help because a lot of the same principles apply whether it be you know in dentistry or in copywriting and I think that’s where

Andy & Chris (43:05.867)

Andy & Chris (43:13.132)
Hmm. We’ll have to bleep that out. We’ll edit that out. That’s fine. It’s fine.

Sugz (43:29.112)
People could probably, you don’t have to necessarily be into copywriting, but just reading a little bit about it can probably open your eyes up to how you can communicate better with patients. And I think that’s where the value would come in more for dentists and clinicians.

Andy & Chris (43:42.714)
It is interesting. It is interesting, yeah. Suggs has been fascinating and I think you talk about it so passionately and I think there’s a funny link that kind of the pioneer and the godfathers called Sugarman and we call you Suggs, which is kind of a modern version of Sugarman, so I quite like that there’s a link that we’ve got there. We always ask our guests two questions at the end. No madness joke. No, no. So the first one we have for you is if you could be the fly on a wall.

Sugz (43:55.916)

Andy & Chris (44:11.694)
in a situation, when would that be and who would be there? I was just thinking with PayPal, realised he was 12. Sorry, Sucks, it just made me laugh.

Sugz (44:18.544)
So yeah. Yeah. No, no. Well, what I was thinking of was, I don’t know if you guys follow football much, but when I would love to have been in the dressing room when Jürgen Klopp, when Liverpool 3-0 down to Barcelona, I’d love to know what you said. Like, how do you, it’s one thing being able to motivate one person, but to be able to motivate a whole squad.

Andy & Chris (44:37.428)

Andy & Chris (44:45.11)

Sugz (44:46.2)
when the whole world’s basically saying you’re written off, you’re against one of the best teams in the world, yeah, you’re playing at home, but I’d love to know what is it that you said? And it’s not the first time Liverpool’s done it, like they’ve done it so many times when they’ve done these crazy comebacks. Yeah. That was the, yeah, corner taken quickly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I just wanna know what is it you say? Like, how do you motivate a whole group of people?

Andy & Chris (44:48.792)

Andy & Chris (44:55.07)
Yeah That was cracking wasn’t it? That was trent alexander’s that’s a corner thing. Yeah That is such a brilliant moment. Yeah

Andy & Chris (45:10.982)
It’s almost like the ultimate lesson in leadership, isn’t it? You’ve got 15 minutes, you’re in a situation that could not be worse, and you have to harness that group to change completely in 45 minutes. And somehow you don’t think it’s shouting. No. You know, Ferguson was, what was it, the hairdryer? Yeah. But you somehow feel it wouldn’t have been.

Sugz (45:16.813)

Andy & Chris (45:33.162)
a hairdryer, it would have been, well, I don’t know, it’d be fascinating. Like you say, there’s so many options, you know, do you shout, do you go quiet? Do you say, well, you’ve let yourselves down, you know, it’s over, you can’t pull this back. You know, you use reverse psychology. Do you use disappointed? Yeah. My children hate disappointed. Well, it’d be fascinating to see what tactic there is, and also you’ve not got long, because the clock’s ticking. You can’t go back to the training ground and dissect it and think you’ve got.

Sugz (45:37.606)

Sugz (45:46.288)
Do reverse psychology, yeah.


Andy & Chris (45:59.71)
you know, by the time they kind of get off the pitch in the changing room and get back out again, you probably got something like 12 or 13 minutes to turn it around, but whatever he said worked.

Sugz (46:08.673)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Andy & Chris (46:09.742)
What’s those Amazon Prime video things? What they call them? All or nothing or something. I don’t think. Yeah. Yeah, you know, a bit of a groan.

Sugz (46:13.668)
That’s what I wish they did, but apparently he’s… Yeah, but apparently he’s just not willing to do it. Yeah, he’s not willing to allow cameras into his dressing room, which is fair enough.

Andy & Chris (46:20.542)
I really? Ah, okay.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I suppose if you’ve got, you know, if it’s something like him, there’s, there’s a degree of magic sauce, isn’t there? Yes. In terms of how he goes about it. And I know you can’t kind of just watch a documentary on somebody and mimic them, but there will be elements of what he does that does make him and his team special. So as a follow on from that, if you could meet somebody, you could sit down with them and have half an hour chat. Who would you like to have a conversation with given the opportunity? And we will say living or dead, fact or fiction.

Sugz (46:30.946)

Sugz (46:54.312)
This one’s a bit of a strange one because I think this is more recent but someone I’ve got into a lot recently is Darren Brown. Yeah so another one of my past well pursuits I would say is it was magic so I always liked doing magic. That never went anywhere I just did it in my bedroom but it was always something that fascinated me and I always saw Darren Brown as you know he’s just a magician he did the hypnosis stuff and whatever.

Andy & Chris (47:00.568)

Andy & Chris (47:12.086)

Andy & Chris (47:20.undefined)

Sugz (47:21.972)
The reason why it’s come back around was because I started reading his books and the guy’s an amazing writer for one. He understands psychology really well so I’d just I’d love to know, well one I’d love to know in his heyday when he was doing all that mentalism stuff and he was doing the Russian roulette stuff, you know, what was it like and how did he actually, I want to know the secrets, you know, I want to know how he actually does it. And he just seems like a really funny guy to be honest.

Andy & Chris (47:37.18)

Andy & Chris (47:44.793)

Yeah. There was something about that recently, wasn’t there, Suggs? Was it? I can’t remember. They said that when he did the Russian roulette, there was a 15-second delay between what was on and what was broadcast, just in case it did go wrong.

Oh really? Yeah, yeah. There was something in the article I was reading or something about and they said yeah, because they showed that Russian roulette thing and then it was a real bullet and something. And they said yeah, when they broadcast it, there was a 15 second delay between what you actually saw and what actually happened, just in case it didn’t quite work. Because they didn’t want to show someone blowing their brains out on TV, which I thought was interesting. I don’t know quite how he does it, but he seems to create an intensity to his acts that other people just don’t bring.

Sugz (48:01.942)
Oh, I didn’t know that.

Sugz (48:07.728)
I don’t know.

Sugz (48:18.877)
Oh. What?

Andy & Chris (48:26.422)
You know, you’re really hanging on every moment of what’s happening. And you know, he’s an amazing storyteller through the art that he’s got. And you really do get sucked into the whole experience of it.

Sugz (48:32.109)

Sugz (48:40.64)
Yeah, and I think that’s it. That’s what gravitates me towards him is the storytelling more so than the actual magic, you know, the magic Anyone can technically do if you learn the skill and you know, you learn the techniques, but it’s the The performance, you know, it’s the storytelling how he gets you to feel one emotion and then feel another emotion that kind of thing That’s what that’s what really hits

Andy & Chris (48:42.776)


Andy & Chris (48:53.374)
Mmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (49:01.227)
Suggs, it’s been wonderful. Thank you very much indeed. Fascinating. I think the mixture of what you do is great. I’m sure a lot of people are going to go away and think more about words.

having listened to this and I think in a world where we move very quickly it has become very visual you know either with video or audio I think taking 10 seconds just a step back and remind ourselves and remember how important and how powerful words can be is really important if you let us have your link and we can drop that in the guest notes if you want to reach out to you and kind of have a chat that would be great but it’s been a fascinating conversation it’s been really enjoyable. Yeah brilliant thank you for your time and

Sugz (49:29.313)

Andy & Chris (49:41.668)
you say indeed not huge you know designer hip-hop oh and a dentist as well I just sort of roll that in that takes four days a week it’s brilliant so much going on but look I was just good to speak to you thanks man cheers dadda

Sugz (49:50.7)
Yeah, just chuck that in there. Yeah.

Sugz (49:58.212)
Thank you. Thanks.


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